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Thread: J2 in Southern Italy

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Is it a biased source?
    Oh yes
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  3. #22
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    The further breakdown of J2a-L24 lineages and the remaining J2a.

    J2a-PF7431 found in roughly 6 samples and is mainly concentrated between Campania, Basilicata and Puglia (Napoli, Matera and Bari).

    J2a-FGC35508 seems to be fairly common, so far found in all Southern provinces except Calabria and Molise, in Sicily only 1 so far (Agrigento), in Abruzzo there is a hotspot in L'Aquila, Campania (Napoli and Avellino) and Puglia (Foggia).

    As a specific lineage J2a-L70 is by far the most representing close to 20% of all J2a in Southern, it is found in every region and province in South, it was also the common J2a lineage in the remote Italian villages tested in Lazio and Abruzzo. The two common downstreams of J2a-L70 in Southern Italians is J2a-PF5456 and J2a-Z2177.

    J2a-F3133 lineages are rare in Italy and have not been further tested, so far only found in Calabria (Catanzaro).

    J2a-L192 lineages seem to be rarer in the South than in the North, in the South it is spread out sporadicly two hotspots exist in the South 1 in Cosenza (Calabria) and the other in Napoli (Campania).

    J2a-PF5172 as at least 4 lineages in Italy further breaking down to J2a-FGC16096, J2a-PF5174, J2a-PF7421 and J2a-PH1222.

    J2a-PH1222 is only found in Agrigento, J2a-PF7421 is only found in Potenza (Basilicata) and J2a-PF5174 only in Salerno.

    J2a-FGC16096 is the most spread out of the J2a-PF5172 lineages, its highest hotspot is in Campania (all provinces), and was also found in Bari and Palermo.

    J2a-Z6046 lineages are split into three, J2a-PH4959, J2a-SK1363 and J2a-Z6048.

    J2a-PH4959 is only found in Isernia (Molise).

    J2a-SK1363 is found in Napoli and Foggia (Puglia).

    J2a-Z6048 is by far the most of the three lineages and has its highest hotspot in Campania around Napoli and Salerno, found also in Trapani/Palermo/Agrigento (Sicilia), and Foggia (Puglia).

    The last J2a branch is under the J2a-PF5008, with all belonging under J2a-PF7384, its highest frequency and the vast majority is found in Sicily in all provinces, and appears in Calabria (Cosenza), Campania (Napoli) and Lazio.

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  5. #23
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    it is my understanding the Y haplogroups determination from autosomal DNA is a bit of a guessing game? unless there is just a Y DNA test and just a mt DNA test, haplogroups tend to blend in the autosomal sample?

  6. #24
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    To answer at least the origin of J2b-M205 in Sicily, my personal belief is that it is Levantine in origin, we find J2b-M205 lineages in Sardegna under the J2b-PF7300 which was found in the ancient Levant, whether the Phoenicians brought it specifically it is difficult to say, as some could be Phoenician in origin while others can be later on. Very important additional information about this is we find one in Enna the region is named after Ennus the Syrian slave who led the rebellion against his Roman masters, and his main partner was Cleon a slave of Cilician descent, for anybody more interested in the First Serville War here is the brief wikipedia page on it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Servile_War. What is to be noticed is that the two main chiefs of the revolt were from the East Med and were both under Greek realm before becoming slaves, it seems logically that most slaves brought to Southern Italy would have been Greek speakers as majority of the South spoke Greek at the time, the origins of most slaves would have came from Greek realm (Southern Balkans, Anatolia, the Levant and Egypt).

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    J2a here with direct paternal line roots from the Calabria region of Italy!
    That's great J-Man fellow J2 brother, have you tested further? Are you negative for J2a-FGC15901 or J2a-M47?

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  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    To answer at least the origin of J2b-M205 in Sicily, my personal belief is that it is Levantine in origin, we find J2b-M205 lineages in Sardegna under the J2b-PF7300 which was found in the ancient Levant, whether the Phoenicians brought it specifically it is difficult to say, as some could be Phoenician in origin while others can be later on. Very important additional information about this is we find one in Enna the region is named after Ennus the Syrian slave who led the rebellion against his Roman masters, and his main partner was Cleon a slave of Cilician descent, for anybody more interested in the First Serville War here is the brief wikipedia page on it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Servile_War. What is to be noticed is that the two main chiefs of the revolt were from the East Med and were both under Greek realm before becoming slaves, it seems logically that most slaves brought to Southern Italy would have been Greek speakers as majority of the South spoke Greek at the time, the origins of most slaves would have came from Greek realm (Southern Balkans, Anatolia, the Levant and Egypt).
    A lot of Byzantine "Greeks" in Sicily were likely Greek speaking West Asians. This could also explain high "eastern" R1b in Calabria and eastern Sicily.

    Enna was, as far as I know, named after the region's Greek name, originally "Hennaion".

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    While there's a fair chance J2b1-M205 might've arrived with the Phoenicians, I would not necessarily vouch for such an association without a clearer picture of this marker's phylogeny.



    E-V13? Perhaps... Other branches of E-M35.1? Unlikely, J2a-M319 and J2a-M92 remain more convincing contenders.
    Aga yes they do, J2a-M319 is almost surely Greek in Southern Italy, J2a-M92 is a bit tricker only because people have not tested further, but surely one of the J2a-M92 lineages is Greek, it peaks in areas where Ionic Greeks settled, Campania and Messina/Catania/Reggio also it is the second most common J2a in Griko speakers of the Salento region in Lecce only after J2a-M319, and though on most maps it shows that area to be settled by Doric Greeks, the Griko language is a descendent of Ionic there is more to it, I believe also that J2a-M92 is found higher in places where Ionics settled in general, though it is not found or is extremely rare in Modern Greece. I would say there is good chances that a good portion if not majority of J2a-M92 in Southern Italy is Greek but not exclusively as some might be Eastern Mediterranean or older Bronze Age migrations.

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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Aga yes they do, J2a-M319 is almost surely Greek in Southern Italy, J2a-M92 is a bit tricker only because people have not tested further, but surely one of the J2a-M92 lineages is Greek, it peaks in areas where Ionic Greeks settled, Campania and Messina/Catania/Reggio .
    Many of these Greeks were Hellenized Aegean islanders and western Anatolians. But there is still a presence of J2 subclades peaking in Albania and northern Greece in southern Italy, too.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    A lot of Byzantine "Greeks" in Sicily were likely Greek speaking West Asians. This could also explain high "eastern" R1b in Calabria and eastern Sicily.

    Enna was, as far as I know, named after the region's Greek name, originally "Hennaion".
    Yeah it appears you are right with the Enna etymology, I personally think the high Eastern R1b-Z2103 lineages in Calabria and Eastern Sicily is Greek, and could be an accumulation of the two.

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  17. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Yeah it appears you are right with the Enna etymology, I personally think the high Eastern R1b-Z2103 lineages in Calabria and Eastern Sicily is Greek, and could be an accumulation of the two.
    It is higher in southern Italy than in Greece. It may have been carried by Greek speaking people, but they were likely not of Greek origin themselves. Eastern R1b is high in Pontic Greeks for instance who are Hellenized Caucasus people.

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