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Thread: Gagauz people

  1. #11
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    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_and_East_European 48.26
    2 South_and_West_European 37.12
    3 Caucaus_Parsia 8.14
    4 Middle_East 4.53


    Finished reading population data. 257 populations found.
    12 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Ukrainian-West @ 0.714945
    2 Ukrainian_V @ 1.715579
    3 Ukrainian-Center @ 2.621473
    4 Sorb @ 4.435297
    5 Ukrainian-East @ 4.546976
    6 Ukrainian @ 4.576385
    7 Russian_cossack @ 5.343153
    8 Slovakian @ 5.462048
    9 Belarusian_V @ 5.601309
    10 Russian_South @ 6.032763
    11 Polish_V @ 6.314026
    12 Latvian_V @ 6.612680
    13 Croatian_V @ 6.715695
    14 German @ 7.017372
    15 Czech @ 7.489946
    16 Russian_V @ 7.616338
    17 German-North @ 8.099431
    18 Swedish_V @ 8.131957
    19 Polish @ 8.185590
    20 Mordovian_V @ 8.380632

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Ukrainian-West +50% Ukrainian-West @ 0.714945


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Ukrainian-East +25% Bulgarian +25% Lithuanian @ 0.576190


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++
    1 Estonian + Polish_V + Gagauz + Ukrainian-Center @ 0.395762
    2 Latvian_V + Croatian_V + Ukrainian-East + Polish_V @ 0.426872
    3 Polish + Gagauz + Lithuanian + Ukrainian-Center @ 0.449710
    4 Latvian_V + Belarusian_V + Ukrainian-West + Ukrainian-West @ 0.485813
    5 Latvian + Ukrainian-East + Gagauz + Sorb @ 0.488674
    6 Latvian + Bulgarian + Ukrainian-Center + Ukrainian-Center @ 0.505928
    7 Russian_Center + Lithuanian_V + Gagauz + Ukrainian-Center @ 0.507035
    8 Latvian_V + Croatian_V + Polish + Ukrainian-Center @ 0.509232
    9 Ukrainian-East + Bulgarian + Lithuanian + Ukrainian-Center @ 0.519917
    10 Latvian_V + Croatian_V + Ukrainian + Polish_V @ 0.520154
    11 Latvian_V + Bosnian + Ukrainian-East + Lithuanian_V @ 0.525225
    12 Latvian + Ukrainian-East + Bulgarian + Ukrainian-Center @ 0.526314
    13 Latvian_V + Hungarian + Ukrainian-East + Belarusian @ 0.527389
    14 Latvian_V + Croatian_V + Belarusian_V + Ukrainian-East @ 0.530361
    15 Latvian_V + Ukrainian-West + Ukrainian-West + Polish_V @ 0.531122
    16 Latvian_V + Ukrainian-East + Belarusian + Croatian @ 0.534299
    17 Latvian_V + Latvian + Ukrainian-East + Serbian @ 0.548458
    18 Latvian + Polish_V + Gagauz + Ukrainian-Center @ 0.550586
    19 Ukrainian-East + Polish_V + Gagauz + Lithuanian @ 0.561048
    20 Russian + Lithuanian_V + Gagauz + Ukrainian-Center @ 0.572070

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  3. #12
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    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North-East-European 37.56
    2 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 30.25
    3 West-Asian 17.4
    4 Near_East 11.2
    5 Samoedic 1.14
    6 North-European-Mesolithic 1
    7 East-Siberean 0.8
    8 Melanesian 0.33
    9 North-Siberean 0.3
    10 South-African 0.02

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Gagauz (derived) 2.34
    2 Bulgarian (derived) 3.46
    3 Macedonian (derived) 5.27
    4 Romania (derived) 6.26
    5 Montenegrin (derived) 7.22
    6 Serbian (derived) 8.93
    7 Ashkenazim_V (derived) 11.61
    8 Italian_North (derived) 12.38
    9 Greek_North (derived) 12.75
    10 Swiss (derived) 12.8
    11 Bosnian (derived) 12.95
    12 Greek_South (derived) 12.98
    13 German-South (derived) 13.94
    14 Provancestralal (derived) 14.43
    15 Croatian (derived) 15.08
    16 Hungarian (derived) 15.77
    17 Italian-North (derived) 16.27
    18 Austrian (derived) 16.54
    19 German_V (derived) 16.55
    20 Greek_Center (derived) 16.97

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 73.2% Greek_North (derived) + 26.8% Russian_Center (derived) @ 1.11
    2 66.9% Greek_North (derived) + 33.1% Ukrainian-West (derived) @ 1.11
    3 67.7% Greek_North (derived) + 32.3% Ukrainian_V (derived) @ 1.12
    4 60.4% Greek_East (derived) + 39.6% Ukrainian-Center (derived) @ 1.14
    5 71.5% Greek_North (derived) + 28.5% Russian_South (derived) @ 1.16
    6 68.5% Greek_North (derived) + 31.5% Ukrainian-Center (derived) @ 1.19
    7 59.5% Greek_East (derived) + 40.5% Ukrainian_V (derived) @ 1.19
    8 63.8% Greek_East (derived) + 36.2% Russian_South (derived) @ 1.2
    9 71.2% Greek_North (derived) + 28.8% Russian_V (derived) @ 1.21
    10 70.9% Greek_North (derived) + 29.1% Ukrainian-East (derived) @ 1.22
    11 65.3% Greek_Center (derived) + 34.7% Russian_South (derived) @ 1.23
    12 74.9% Greek_North (derived) + 25.1% Russian (derived) @ 1.23
    13 71.4% Greek_North (derived) + 28.6% Polish_V (derived) @ 1.24
    14 61.1% Greek_Center (derived) + 38.9% Ukrainian_V (derived) @ 1.25
    15 92.2% Gagauz (derived) + 7.8% Tatar_Kryashen (derived) @ 1.25
    16 71.2% Greek_North (derived) + 28.8% Russian_cossack (derived) @ 1.25
    17 64.6% Greek_Center (derived) + 35.4% Ukrainian-East (derived) @ 1.26
    18 92.9% Gagauz (derived) + 7.1% Tartar_Mishar (derived) @ 1.26
    19 71.2% Greek_North (derived) + 28.8% Ukrainian (derived) @ 1.26
    20 62% Greek_Center (derived) + 38% Ukrainian-Center (derived) @ 1.27


    and oracle-4

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Italian-South_derived +50% Latvian_V_derived @ 2.175304


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Greek_North_derived +25% Greek_North_derived +25% Russian_derived @ 1.212575


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++
    1 Gagauz_derived + Greek_Center_derived + Greek_North_derived + Russian_V_derived @ 1.082900
    2 Gagauz_derived + Greek_East_derived + Greek_North_derived + Russian_V_derived @ 1.112940
    3 Gagauz_derived + Greek_East_derived + Greek_North_derived + Russian_South_derived @ 1.169372
    4 Gagauz_derived + Greek_North_derived + Greek_North_derived + Ukrainian_V_derived @ 1.185258
    5 Greek_North_derived + Greek_North_derived + Greek_North_derived + Russian_derived @ 1.212575
    6 Gagauz_derived + Greek_Center_derived + Greek_North_derived + Russian_South_derived @ 1.213988
    7 Croatian_derived + Greek_Center_derived + Greek_Cretan_derived + Ukrainian-Center_derived @ 1.229942
    8 Gagauz_derived + Greek_North_derived + Greek_North_derived + Ukrainian-West_derived @ 1.258417
    9 Gagauz_derived + Greek_Center_derived + Greek_North_derived + Ukrainian-East_derived @ 1.267102
    10 Gagauz_derived + Greek_Center_derived + Greek_East_derived + Russian_Center_derived @ 1.275050
    11 Cypriot_derived + Kosovar_derived + Latvian_V_derived + Ukrainian-West_derived @ 1.279117
    12 Gagauz_derived + Greek_North_derived + Greek_North_derived + Ukrainian-Center_derived @ 1.287344
    13 Croatian_derived + Greek_Center_derived + Greek_Cretan_derived + Ukrainian_V_derived @ 1.292380
    14 Bulgarian_derived + Gagauz_derived + Greek_Cretan_derived + Ukrainian_V_derived @ 1.293872
    15 Gagauz_derived + Greek_East_derived + Greek_North_derived + Ukrainian-East_derived @ 1.293879
    16 Greek_Cretan_derived + Greek_North_derived + Russian_South_derived + Serbian_derived @ 1.295658
    17 Bosnian_derived + Greek_Cretan_derived + Greek_North_derived + Ukrainian-West_derived @ 1.296410
    18 Gagauz_derived + Greek_East_derived + Greek_South_derived + Russian_South_derived @ 1.299708
    19 North-East-European_ancestral + Balkarian_derived + Jew_Romania_derived + Sardinian_derived @ 1.300134
    20 Gagauz_derived + Greek_East_derived + Greek_North_derived + Russian_Center_derived @ 1.307701

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    Quote Originally Posted by lukaszM View Post
    Because they use Gagauz dataset from Yunusbaev study. Those Gagauz are really strange considering fact they are Turkic. They don't have Siberian/ East-Asian admixture at all (and remember Turks in Turkey have, and Gagauz are steppe Turko-Tatars right?). Basically they are like Bulgarians or south Romanians.
    Wikipedia says; Finally, the phylogenetic analysis of Y-DNA situates Gagauzes most proximal to Macedonians, Serbs and other Balkan populations, resulting in a high genetic distance from the Turkish people and other Turkic peoples.[8] According to a more detailed autosomal analysis of thousands of SNPs, not just of the sex chromosome, Gagauzes are most proximal to Ethnic Macedonians, followed by Greek Macedonians apart from Thessaloniki, and others such as Bulgarians, Romanians and Montenegrins.[9]

    So, I am not sure about them. I have East-Asian admixture but it is lower than Turks in Anatolia. (FTDNA <1%, highest gedmatch 4%, average Gedmatch 2-3%). I expect that if they are Turkic then they have to be closer to Balkan Turks.

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  7. #14
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    England Italy Germany Scotland
    my MDLP K23b

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 82.4% Frisian ( ) + 17.6% Greek_Thessaloniki ( ) @ 1.89
    2 82.1% Frisian ( ) + 17.9% Albanian_Tirana ( ) @ 1.89
    3 79.7% Frisian ( ) + 20.3% Kosovar ( ) @ 1.93
    4 82% Frisian ( ) + 18% Greek_Thessaly ( ) @ 1.94
    5 85.9% Frisian ( ) + 14.1% Italian_South ( ) @ 1.99
    6 85.5% Frisian ( ) + 14.5% Greek_Athens ( ) @ 1.99
    7 83.8% Frisian ( ) + 16.2% Central_Greek ( ) @ 2
    8 84.9% Frisian ( ) + 15.1% Sicilian_Center ( ) @ 2.04
    9 79.2% Frisian ( ) + 20.8% Bulgarian ( ) @ 2.05
    10 88.5% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 11.5% Georgian_Tbilisi ( ) @ 2.05
    11 83.4% Frisian ( ) + 16.6% Ashkenazi ( ) @ 2.08
    12 79.3% Frisian ( ) + 20.7% Greek_Northwest ( ) @ 2.08
    13 88.8% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 11.2% Georgian_Laz ( ) @ 2.08
    14 85.4% Frisian ( ) + 14.6% Greek ( ) @ 2.09
    15 93.2% Belgian ( ) + 6.8% Georgian_Laz ( ) @ 2.1
    16 84.5% Frisian ( ) + 15.5% Romanian_Jew ( ) @ 2.1
    17 84.3% Frisian ( ) + 15.7% Gagauz ( ) @ 2.11
    18 82.1% Frisian ( ) + 17.9% Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) @ 2.14
    19 93% Belgian ( ) + 7% Georgian_Imereti ( ) @ 2.15
    20 84.3% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 15.7% Circassian ( ) @ 2.16

    #17 lists Gagauz as my minor ethnicity.

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  9. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dinšer View Post
    Lukasz, have you ever seen a Gagauz genetic result with a clear indication of Turkic genetic ancestry?

    I uploaded those Yunusbaev's Gagauzes to gedmatch. At least in K36 they don't have any. Check by your self in others.


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  11. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thracian88 View Post
    Wikipedia says; Finally, the phylogenetic analysis of Y-DNA situates Gagauzes most proximal to Macedonians, Serbs and other Balkan populations, resulting in a high genetic distance from the Turkish people and other Turkic peoples.[8] According to a more detailed autosomal analysis of thousands of SNPs, not just of the sex chromosome, Gagauzes are most proximal to Ethnic Macedonians, followed by Greek Macedonians apart from Thessaloniki, and others such as Bulgarians, Romanians and Montenegrins.[9]

    So, I am not sure about them. I have East-Asian admixture but it is lower than Turks in Anatolia. (FTDNA <1%, highest gedmatch 4%, average Gedmatch 2-3%). I expect that if they are Turkic then they have to be closer to Balkan Turks.
    Yes, there are many times replacement for Macedonians. This is why I don't use them in my oracles.

    So maybe there are some SW Bulgarians / Macedonians resettled by Ottomans to Besarabia. But for what reason they have their own Turkic language? And in the same time there are orthodox Christians? It is a real mystery.

  12. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukaszM View Post
    Yes, there are many times replacement for Macedonians. This is why I don't use them in my oracles.

    So maybe there are some SW Bulgarians / Macedonians resettled by Ottomans to Besarabia. But for what reason they have their own Turkic language? And in the same time there are orthodox Christians? It is a real mystery.
    I think there are two scenarios.

    Scenario I

    They were Turkifield Balkan natives and resettled to Besarabia. But that scenario doesn't explain their religion.

    Scenario II

    They were a Turkic tribe and mixed with natives. As far as I know some Turkic tribes such as Huns, Bulgars etc... arrived Europe a few centuries before the Ottomans. It could explain why they speak a Turkic language and also the religion. I know that their language is little bit different than Oghuz Turkish.

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  14. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Their bardic story are 2
    1- they originate from bulgars living on the bulgarian black sea coast and fled north on the ottoman invasions

    2- they are "bulgars" from Altaic turkic lands who went to the balkans with the bulgars
    The migration to the "North" if you mean Besarabia is very recent. I am surprised nobody here is aware of it. The most prominent theory was associating Gagauz with Seljukide sultan Keykavus and a migration from Anatolia in the 13th century.
    Last edited by eolien; 01-21-2018 at 10:25 PM.

  15. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thracian88 View Post
    I think there are two scenarios.

    Scenario I

    They were Turkifield Balkan natives and resettled to Besarabia. But that scenario doesn't explain their religion.
    It explains their religion pretty well if they switched to Turkish during the Ottoman times or during the late Rum Seljuk times (assuming that the Seljuk migration theory is correct). Their Turkic language is the Balkan variant of the Ottoman Turkish language, the language what is nowadays called Balkan Turkish, they specifically speak its Dobrudja dialect as Gagauz people lived in Dobrudja before being resettled in Bessarabia during the 19th century. In fact, as a Balkan Turk you should understand the language of Gagauz people pretty well.
    Hidden Content

    Y-DNA: R1b>L51>L151>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC 32041; Nigde, Turkey
    mtDNA: X2e2a; Drama, Greece
    Maternal Y-DNA: R1a>Z93>Z94>Y40>YP294>YP4866; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's mtDNA: T2b; Nigde, Turkey
    Paternal grandfather's mtDNA: H2a1; Nigde, Turkey
    Maternal grandfather's mtDNA: H5; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's maternal Y-DNA: R1b>L51>L151>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC 32041; Nigde, Turkey

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  17. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dinšer View Post
    It explains their religion pretty well if they switched to Turkish during the Ottoman times or during the late Rum Seljuk times (assuming that the Seljuk migration theory is correct). Their Turkic language is the Balkan variant of the Ottoman Turkish language, the language what is nowadays called Balkan Turkish, they specifically speak its Dobrudja dialect as Gagauz people lived in Dobrudja before being resettled in Bessarabia during the 19th century. In fact, as a Balkan Turk you should understand the language of Gagauz people pretty well.
    Yes, I checked. Their language is in one family with modern Turkic and extinct Osman language ( I thought before it was similar to Crimean Tatar). So it could be simply Balkan dialect of Osman or Turkic. But Orthodoxy...

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