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Thread: Bell Beaker & R1b - A weak hypothesis

  1. #1
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    Bell Beaker & R1b - A weak hypothesis

    Hi, first of all I really respect your collective genetic knowledge. I'm approaching this from an archaeological perspective so I can't really comment on the genetic variety of R1b itself bar the largest sub-groups.

    I cannot accept, from the point of view of archaeology, R1b arriving into Britain and Ireland only during the Copper Age. It goes against everything I have learnt of prehistoric Britain and of human nature.

    I've noticed that the Atlantic Megalithic culture of Western Europe tends to be where we have the highest concentration of R1b today. Megaliths of this sort are found in great number in Portugal, Northern Spain/Basque Country/ Western France and the British Isles. To me, this suggests a spread of R1b earlier than the Bronze Age but later than the Mesolithic.

    It is inconceivable that a major genocide occurred all across Europe perpetrated by R1b Bell Beaker males. Neolithic Europe had a flourishing culture and we would be looking towards hundreds of thousands of people dying. Britain in ~2500BC is estimated to have had a population of many tens of thousands. We would find the remains of this violent time. We don't. We do see the early Neolithic as a violent time though. If I recall correctly, in the early Neolithic 10-20% of human remains found show signs of violent injuries. We don't see this with the time of the Bell Beaker phenomenon. Jews in Nazi Germany made up a tiny minority of Germans and the Nazis with all their modern weapons could not kill them all. Therefore, the killing of 60% plus of Western Europe's male population is unthinkable and ridiculous with these population numbers. Please don't say it was disease or social effects that made R1b so heavily present today. People from Britain had long been in contact with the continent. Any disease affecting the Neolithic population would have been equally affecting the Bell Beaker people. Socially, it is ridiculous to think that the other haplogroups were bred out. That would require one homogeneous social system from Iberia, through the Alps, to the British Isles and Germany etc. People don't work like that.

    It is also incorrectly assumed that the Bell Beaker people had better weaponry. This is a myth; copper is not a durable metal and not useful in a war-like scenario. Neolithic populations and the possible Bell Beaker people will have had equal weaponry. This is not a Native Americans vs Europeans type scenario.

    Barry Cunliffe in his recent book "Britain Begins" remarks how Bell Beakers are found in only small numbers in Ireland and even then they usually only occur alongside "indigenous" culture. This is evidence for continuity. Western Ireland is up to 90% R1b so this haplogroup must have been earlier.

    One final piece of evidence against the R1b Bell Beaker theory is that stone circles continued to be built and used during the early Bronze Age. This shows a continuity of culture which one would not expect of genocidal maniacs. In Scotland, a recent study by the University of Aberdeen shows Bell Beaker burials related to earlier Neolithic Stone Circle alignments and Bell Beakers were found alongside earlier megalithic phenomena. Again, continuity.

    The Basque language is another problem. It is not Indo-European yet 90%+ Basque Y-DNA is R1b. Therefore, Indo-European languages did not enter this part of Europe during this period alongside R1b.

    Now, this is the serious part. Some of the members on here are clearly very political and show a complete bias. Now, this is not to claim I am free from bias. I want to be descended from Cro-Magnon but I realise this is not at all likely considering the evidence. Others allow their bias to completely affect their work. Members from this and other forums have remarked about not liking "politically correct Anti-Migrationists" and one forum member talked of Bell Beaker people "routing" the earlier people in war....with no evidence! If you see a simple pot as evidence of a genocide event then you clearly must see the Romans having replaced all the Iron Age people of Gaul, Britain, Iberia etc. Others appear to love the idea of their R1b ancestors being a warlike, ultra-aggressive Mongolesque invasion force wiping out people all over Europe. This is unrealistic nonsense and is more akin to the Stormfront version of history. People are random!

    One must remember how metallurgy will have looked to a Neolithic person. It will have been seen as magic, how this lump of apparent stone will melt into a red hot liquid then poured into a cast where it magically becomes a solid, cold knife etc. This explains the sudden loss of British Neolithic religion. Try and enter a Stone Age mind. In the South Pacific, during WW2, native tribes worshipped American planes and radios, building mock wooden planes to try and encourage the Gods to give them the American foodstuffs. Faced with an advanced new technology, the Americans became their focus of religion.

    My hypothesis is that R1b arrived into a sparsely populated Europe of hunter gatherers and early farmers and achieved a greater population density leading to violence. The Early/Middle Neolithic is the best candidate for a spread of R1b. I do not accept the Basque/R1b/Ice Age hypothesis either.

    Thanks for reading, this issue has been bothering me recently.

    Crossposted from WorldFamilies

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Northern Line For This Useful Post:

     Cascio (04-22-2020),  History-of-Things (06-29-2013)

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    It seems like you bunched up 10 different things into one post, but are you saying that the Late Neolithic/Early Copper Age people that took up using Bell Beakers in their funerary practice were not heavily R1b+ ???
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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     Silesian (06-29-2013)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    It seems like you bunched up 10 different things into one post, but are you saying that the Late Neolithic/Early Copper Age people that took up using Bell Beakers in their funerary practice were not heavily R1b+ ???

    I don't think I've bunched up anything. My points are about the unlikelihood of the Bell Beakers bringing R1b to the British Isles (and consequently, probably not bringing it to other areas). I'm of the opinion that R1b was already in Britain before the Bell Beaker culture. I've included the Basque Indo-European problem also because it is connected to R1b. I've also said that my opinion is that the Early/Mid Neolithic is the most likely period for R1b's arrival.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Line View Post
    I've also said that my opinion is that the Early/Mid Neolithic is the most likely period for R1b's arrival.
    But your opinion appears to be based on straw men of your own devising, and especially preconceptions that are unproven (and not widely shared by the people actually studying the genetics of haplogroup R). Recent proposals or theories (e.g. about the genetic makeup of early Bell Beaker culture bearers) don't have to make sense to you to be valid. It is not necessary for R1b lineages to have been in northwestern Europe for several millennia before the mutations involved had occurred, nor for them to have exterminated their northwestern European predecessors at sword point, for them to be the most numerous male haplogroup there today.

    In short, I agree with R. Rocca. (About this, anyway.)

  7. #5
    I agree with you that this R1b doesn't come from the steepe like some people wish. No way steepe people can wipe out such densely populated areas. And I also disagree that R1b is some sort of super advantageous haplogroup (the argument seems to have been made numerous times before and it has been mentioned how R1a didn't dominate Eastern Europe the way R1b did to Western Europe). Whenever R1b has existed alongside other Neolithic West Asian haplogroups it has been anything far of dominant (see West Asia, SE Europe, the Caucasus) etc
    Last edited by newtoboard; 06-29-2013 at 04:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    But your opinion appears to be based on straw men of your own devising, and especially preconceptions that are unproven (and not widely shared by the people actually studying the genetics of haplogroup R). Recent proposals or theories (e.g. about the genetic makeup of early Bell Beaker culture bearers) don't have to make sense to you to be valid. It is not necessary for R1b lineages to have been in northwestern Europe for several millennia before the mutations involved had occurred, nor for them to have exterminated their northwestern European predecessors at sword point, for them to be the most numerous male haplogroup there today.

    In short, I agree with R. Rocca. (About this, anyway.)
    People like you make me angry. You've ignored all the archaeological evidence I've presented and you've ignored the fact that I've said I don't understand genetics. I've said i'm not making judgements on R1b itself. I'm simply informing you of the archaeological + anthropological evidence against Bell Beaker people spreading R1b.

    Anyway, I'm afraid that the genetic spread of R1b must make sense with the archaeology. Otherwise you're just spreading pseudo-science. There is no straw man anywhere. Explain to me how R1b became so numerous only in the Copper Age without genocide? You're attempting to explain away evidence and it doesn't work in the real world.

    Have I angered you by using real evidence to back up an opinion? You may wish to disagree with professional archaeologists but that's to your detriment.

  9. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    I agree with you that this R1b doesn't come from the steepe like some people wish. No way steepe people can wipe out such densely populated areas. And I also disagree that R1b is some sort of super advantageous haplogroup (the argument seems to have been made numerous times before and it has been mentioned how R1a didn't dominate Eastern Europe the way R1b did to Western Europe). Whenever R1b has existed alongside other Neolithic West Asian haplogroups it has been anything far of dominant (see West Asia, SE Europe, the Caucasus) etc
    Thanks for reading my post. This idea of super-R1b is indeed in the realm of pseudo-history. It feels as if I'm reading the journal of a 19th century historian at times. Good intentions but lack of evidence and population genetics is still a fairly new science so we have much to learn!

  10. #8
    I answered Northern Line on Worldfamilies and I post them here too.
    1
    « Reply #1 on: June 28, 2013, 08:48:15 PM »
    Many thanks for your writing. Perhaps you know that my theory of the Italian Refugium of R1b amongst other haplogroups presupposes a diffusion from Italy at least from 7500 years ago with the agriculturalists by sea to Iberia and later to the Isles, see the presence of R-L51 in the places where they landed in Iberia but also the presence in Ireland.
    Northern line or Southern line?
    I carried many proofs (against all of course, also in this forum) of this theory, and the migration was at least twice: from Iberia to the Isles but also from Italy directly Northwards: see Amesbury Archer etc., but also my mtDNA haplogroup: K1a1b1e, which demonstrates a link with the Isles but not with Iberia.
    Someone I don't want to name said that I carry only single samples: every proof is single, but I carried tons of proofs.

    2
    Of course I completely agree with you, above all about the aDNA we need (but the skeptics, like some your compatriot, is just on the safe side...).

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    But your opinion appears to be based on straw men of your own devising, and especially preconceptions that are unproven (and not widely shared by the people actually studying the genetics of haplogroup R). Recent proposals or theories (e.g. about the genetic makeup of early Bell Beaker culture bearers) don't have to make sense to you to be valid. It is not necessary for R1b lineages to have been in northwestern Europe for several millennia before the mutations involved had occurred, nor for them to have exterminated their northwestern European predecessors at sword point, for them to be the most numerous male haplogroup there today.

    In short, I agree with R. Rocca. (About this, anyway.)
    Well-played, Dick.

  12. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopfjäger View Post
    Well-played, Dick.
    Elaborate please. At the moment, people are proving my distrust of amateur geneticists.

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