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Thread: Bell Beaker & R1b - A weak hypothesis

  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    .... So many readers of this forum do not have access to my material and cannot join in the debate. I cannot present a case without posting lengthy extracts and images from copyright material in which the publisher has a stake. In short this is not the best time for yet another round of "let's find something wrong with Jean's Stelae People." In just a few short months, that will be a game everyone can play. OK?
    Sorry, I guess that's my fault. I buy off (agree with you) on the Stelae people and I like to see the debate to just double check to see if I'm still with it and see if anyone else agrees or disagrees. I'm always open to something, but I honestly don't think the Stelae folks are getting their due attention. I guess we'll wait until the book!

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  3. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Anthony's book was a huge critical and popular success. That is annoying for Colin Renfrew and his supporters. Renfrew attempted to smear Anthony in completely unfair ways. Others have been sour. All very understandable if you put your money on PIE-from-Anatolia. But the fact of the matter is that Anthony did a terrific job. He has a first-class mind. It is not he saying that. It is those academics who have reviewed his work. I was hugely enthusiastic. Yet just a decade or so ago, I plumped for PIE-with-the-Neolithic. I am always willing to be convinced by logical deduction from the evidence.

    David Anthony would be the first to say that the last word on the PIE homeland has not been spoken. As the Archaeology Editor of the Journal of Indo-European Studies, he will see new ideas presented all the time. Mallory would agree. He greeted David Anthony's book as the best synthesis on the topic so far (i.e. generously placing it above his own synthesis in 1989). But in the natural course of things, we can expect another synthesis in a decade or so. Such a new synthesis could be informed by ancient DNA as another strand in the story.
    I agree its a very good book and has put much more flesh on the bones of the steppe model. I particularly like his discussion of the non or pre-Yamnaya elements in the southern edge of the western steppes that he links to Anatolians and other IE branches. I think that is the most important part of his book. I think he has started the important process of moving on from an overly Yamnaya-dominated model to a wider steppe one with the process of IE peoples moving commencing nearly 1000 years before Yamnaya and recent papers suggest a broader western steppe model might emerge.

    My main beef with Anthony compared to Mallory is he tends to be too confident in some of his assertions when there is a lot of things that hang on very slight evidence. I much prefer Mallory's style of writing too. Anthony is rather dry.
    Last edited by alan; 07-08-2013 at 11:53 PM.

  4. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    1. R1b is hands down the most common y haplogroup in the British Isles, especially as L21, and especially in the "Celtic Fringe" of the British Isles.

    2. A number of scholars over the years, the most recent being David Anthony, associate the spread of Italo-Celtic with the Beaker Folk, and Celtic got to the British Isles somehow.

    3. The only Beaker Folk y-dna results thus far are R1bxU106.

    4. Thus far, no R1b has turned up in Neolithic or older remains. Instead, G2a and I2a predominate, with some E1b1b and F*.


    Things could change, but those facts seem to me to make the Beaker Folk as the vector of most of the L21 and DF27 in the Isles a very reasonable working hypothesis.
    Nice summary. There's a place for the speculation and that's OK, but this is a timely reminder of what we actually know so far.

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