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Thread: Bell Beaker & R1b - A weak hypothesis

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by History-of-Things View Post
    Thank you for your contribution Northern Line. The fact of the matter is this particular forum was not originally so filled with speculation on the Y-chromosome. When it started it was much more dedicated to sharing of information broadly. I had myself been away for several months consumed with work and personal matters and was a bit shocked to find the way things had gone. This stuff is largely a carry-over from the defunct DNA-Forums board, and had thankfully for a while confined itself to "A Genetic Genealogy Community" while we were chugging along here quite peacefully for a while sharing articles and the like in a more rational, harmonious way. We shall see which way this board finally swings. Please don't think everyone on this forum agrees with what is posted--it's just we know how useless it is to try and engage in conversation with certain personalities we have now experienced online for years and years.

    I personally would like to get back to sharing actual information on this forum and leave the rife speculation to other places on the net.
    Thank you for your comment. Like you, I enjoy engaging in evidence-based reasoning. Speculation without evidence does have its place but it must always be remembered as speculative.

  2. #22
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    We do not mind the evidence if it is presented in a way that cultivates sound discussion. Contrary to what some folks - and yourself - may believe, you do not appear aptly receptive of feedback when you write things like, "people like you make me angry".

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopfjäger View Post
    We do not mind the evidence if it is presented in a way that cultivates sound discussion. Contrary to what some folks - and yourself - may believe, you did not appear aptly receptive of feedback when you write things like, "people like you make me angry".
    I'm sorry but I have been polite throughout, and I'm afraid Razyn's response did anger me greatly. I have nothing against you. I did my best to encourage discussion by asking the critical posters to tell me where I have gone wrong and what my "straw-man" arguments were but they have failed to do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    It is not a "mission statement" of sorts to give preferential treatment to any ideas or speculations, no matter how popular or unpopular they are.
    I don't think I ever implied that there was any particular bias, only that people such as myself who would be skeptical of a considerable amount of things posted by certain cliques within the broader genetic genealogy community do not always have a visible presence within the threads, and this may be difficult for some new participants to understand. I am not the only early member of this forum who has become exasperated of late, I might add.

    At any rate, here's one vote for "we have years to go before we can possibly begin putting together archaeological and DNA evidence in an adequate way to explain historical developments, and we should really be concentrating on developing methodologies rather than guessing and arguing in circles." I might add a caveat to that: relating genetic trends to historically documented eras is the first step to understanding how we can use genetic evidence in prehistory.
    architectural historian/material culture historian
    specialty: East/West interaction 17th to 19th centuries

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  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by History-of-Things View Post
    At any rate, here's one vote for "we have years to go before we can possibly begin putting together archaeological and DNA evidence in an adequate way to explain historical developments, and we should really be concentrating on developing methodologies rather than guessing and arguing in circles." I might add a caveat to that: relating genetic trends to historically documented eras is the first step to understanding how we can use genetic evidence in prehistory.
    Your comment perfectly illustrates my feelings on this matter as I am a person who understands the archaeology much more than the genetics. The genetics should fit with the archaeology but at present it does not. I just want people not to put their eggs in one basket and keep an open mind.

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  9. #26
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    Easy question yes or no answer, are you equating megaliths with R1b? I have some questions?
    Last edited by Silesian; 06-29-2013 at 06:14 PM.

  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Are you equating megaliths with R1b?
    Hi

    I'm suggesting that the people who were members of the Megalithic culture were probably R1b already. I should have structured that paragraph better. To me, it appears like Bell Beakers were quickly moved around Western Europe by the existing Megalithic culture through long established trade links and new metal prospectors following the trade routes (if 'prospectors' is not too much of an anachronistic word).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Line View Post
    Hi

    I'm suggesting that the people who were members of the Megalithic culture were probably R1b already. I should have structured that paragraph better. To me, it appears like Bell Beakers were quickly moved around Western Europe by the existing Megalithic culture through long established trade links and new metal prospectors following the trade routes (if 'prospectors' is not too much of an anachronistic word).
    Which is the oldest Megalithic structure roughly speaking in the geographical region you have outlined in your original post? You don't have to be exact you could say Callanish Stones for example?
    Last edited by Silesian; 06-29-2013 at 06:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by History-of-Things View Post
    Thank you for your contribution Northern Line. The fact of the matter is this particular forum was not originally so filled with speculation on the Y-chromosome. When it started it was much more dedicated to sharing of information broadly. I had myself been away for several months consumed with work and personal matters and was a bit shocked to find the way things had gone. This stuff is largely a carry-over from the defunct DNA-Forums board, and had thankfully for a while confined itself to "A Genetic Genealogy Community" while we were chugging along here quite peacefully for a while sharing articles and the like in a more rational, harmonious way. We shall see which way this board finally swings. Please don't think everyone on this forum agrees with what is posted--it's just we know how useless it is to try and engage in conversation with certain personalities we have now experienced online for years and years.

    I personally would like to get back to sharing actual information on this forum and leave the rife speculation to other places on the net.
    It's true, there was a lot more sharing of studies and less speculation in the early days, and I'd like to see more articles and studies posted (as well as more diversity in their content - autosomal genetics, medicine, anthropology, history, etc., not just Y DNA haplogroups), but DMXX is absolutely right in that speculation has a place. If this forum were limited to papers and news articles, it'd be little more than an RSS feed, or a link aggregator like reddit.

    / 2 cents.

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  14. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Which is the oldest Megalithic structure roughly speaking?
    There's no consensus on the issue. Barry Cunliffe has stated that it may be that the Neolithic Megaliths were a continuation of Mesolithic culture. He states that the evidence for this can be seen in Brittany. It is a curious idea, so who knows when the culture developed. It is also hard to accurately date stone structures. The best way to date it is by material found alongside the structure although this can be misleading.

    It is also important to recognise that the land built on by the Neolithic Megalith builders appears to occasionally be significant in the Mesolithic period. For example, under the Stonehenge visitor car park, two Mesolithic post holes have been found which some have suggested to be like Totem poles in the Americas. Also, at the bottom of a reservoir in Devon, archaeologists found a stone circle adjacent to a Mesolithic mound.

    I believe Cunliffe stated (though I may be wrong) that Megaliths started in Brittany as a recognisable culture first. The Carnac Stones etc are particularly interesting. It's all still very confusing.

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