H18

[Tresyl]

Hello all,
Any H18 or someone from the community that could give some info on this unfrequent haplogroup? It seems that H18 originated in the Middle East (Arabian Peninsula?)

[Rathna]

Hello all,
Any H18 or someone from the community that could give some info on this unfrequent haplogroup? It seems that H18 originated in the Middle East (Arabian Peninsula?)

From the samples present in "Ian Logan spreadsheet" doesn't seem that its origin is in the Near East:
1. AY495116(European) Coble H18 07-JAN-2008 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G G4048A A4769G A8860G G13708A G14364A A15326G T16519C
2. EF657723 mtDNA542(Europe) Herrnstadt H18 14-JUL-2007 A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G G13708A G14364A A15326G
3. EF660997(Italy) Gasparre (INCOMPLETE) H18 04-JUL-2007 A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10870T G13708A G14364A T15209C A15326G T16519C
4. HM852833(Iranian37) Schoenberg H18 17-MAR-2011 T60A G85A A263G A750G A1438G A4769G G7598A A8860G G13708A A15326G T16519C
5. JQ701918 Behar H18 07-APR-2012 A263G 315.1C 523.1C 523.2A A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G G13708A G14364A T14992C A15326G T16519C
6. JQ702305 Behar H18 07-APR-2012 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G C2393T A4769G A8860G G13708A G14364A C14574T A15326G T16519C
7. JQ703531(Netherlands) Behar H18 07-APR-2012 A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G G13708A G14364A A15326G T16209C T16519C
8. JQ704205(Netherlands) Behar H18 07-APR-2012 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G T2638C A4769G A8860G A13105G G13708A G14364A A15326G T16519C
9. JQ704344 Behar H18 07-APR-2012 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G G11719A C13515T G13708A G14364A A15326G T16519C
10. JQ704443(France) Behar H18 07-APR-2012 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G G13708A G14364A A15326G T16519C
11. JQ705490 Behar H18 07-APR-2012 C150T A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C G709A A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G G13708A G14198A G14364A A15326G T16519C
- 23andMe ('atelepen') H18 194T 263G 750G 1438G 4769G 8860G 13708A 15326G 16519C

[Rathna]

Nor the samples used by Behar 2012b:

Haplogroup,"h18"
SampleId,"NCBI Id","Results Verified","Unresolved Options","Partial Descendents","Private Mutations","Topologically Missing","Country","Geography","Ancestry","Referen ce","Contact"
MC360,"JQ701918","1","","","T14992C ,",",",",Behar 2012b",""
MC747,"JQ702305","1","","","C2393T C14574T ,",",",",Behar 2012b",""
MC1373,"","1","","","315.1C 522.1A 522.2C","","Germany","","","",""
MC1973,"JQ703531","1","","","T16209C ,",Netherlands","","","Behar 2012b",""
MC2647,"JQ704205","1","","","T2638C ,G13105A(L2'3'4'6) ","Netherlands","","","Behar 2012b",""
MC2786,"JQ704344","1","","","C13515T ,A11719G(R0) ","","","","Behar 2012b",""
MC2885,"JQ704443","1","","","","","France","","","Behar 2012b",""
MC3932,"JQ705490","1","","","C150T G709A G14198A ,",",",",Behar 2012b",""
MC14491,"AY495116","1","","","G4048A ,",",",",Coble 2004",""

[Rathna]

The Iranian sample of the "Ian Logan Spreadsheet", lacking G14364A, isn't H18:

4. HM852833(Iranian37) Schoenberg H18 17-MAR-2011 T60A G85A A263G A750G A1438G A4769G G7598A A8860G G13708A A15326G T16519C

[GailT]

The Iranian sample of the "Ian Logan Spreadsheet", lacking G14364A, isn't H18

This sample could be ancestral to H18 which would make it more useful for identifying the geographic origin of H18. There is also an H18 sample in the FTDNA project from Turkey. I think an origin of H18 in the Near East seems likely, although we need a much larger sample size to be confident.

[Rathna]

In the mtDNA haplotree of Behar 2012b, G13708A has mutated 33 times, G14364A only 6, then statistically I'd say that the Iranian sample probably isn't the ancestor of H18, but of course I agree with you that we need more samples, but you should see that the H haplotypes are much more in Europe than in Middle East. How many samples do you need for dismissing your prejudices? It seems that neither Mr. Greenspan is so sure of his:

Haplogroups ... can tell us a lot about our most distant ancestors and even give us an idea of 'when' our ancestors became Jews. As romantic as it is to presume that all of our ancestors stood at Mt. Sinai waiting for Moses to reappear, in truth only some of our ancestors were Jews 3200 years ago--Haplogroups can give us instant clues of when and perhaps where our ancestors joined the Jewish people. The lecture will deal primarily on Ashkenazim, both males and females.

[Rathna]

H18 3309.6 3665.7

This is the age that Behar 2012b assigns to this haplogroup.

The Iranian sample has 3 mutations that the European ones haven’t: T60A, G85A and G7598A and hasn’t 2 mutations that all the European ones have: 315.1C and G14364A, then 5 mutations and 2 in the Coding Region.
They would have in common only G13708A.

All this doesn’t fit neither with the Behar’s age nor with the logic.

You wasn’t so open about my mutation in H26, and it is much rarer than G13708A.
This is the prejudice: to be biased in one’s judgement!

[GailT]

In the mtDNA haplotree of Behar 2012b, G13708A has mutated 33 times, G14364A only 6, then statistically I'd say that the Iranian sample probably isn't the ancestor of H18

Yes, I think you are correct, and I will exclude both HM852833 and HM765461 from H18, and I'll recalculate the age estimate using only the H18 samples in GenBank and the FTDNA project. Can you remind me what the issue was with H26? I'm happy to correct any mistakes, and I welcome any critical comments on the mtDNA haplogroup analysis.

thanks,
Gail

[GailT]

I have 10 FMS results for H18, and only six with known ancestry: 2 from Netherlands, and one each from UK, France, Italy, and Turkey. The average number of mutations is 1.5 over the full genome, which gives me an age estimate of about 4000 ybp using the Soares method.

I'd like to see a much larger sample size. There are at least 20 more people who tested as H18 at FTDNA but have not shared their results. We have a very large oversampling bias from Europe, especially northwestern Europe. So the fact that 3 of the samples are from France, Italy and Turkey might suggest an origin of H18 in southern Europe or the Mediterranean region around 4000 years ago.

[Rathna]

Can you remind me what the issue was with H26?

I spoke erroneously of hg. H26, because I wrote about it too, but the hg. is that erroneously labelled H13a1. See eng.molgen, Another mtDNA H from the Italian Refugium?

"I said that the mutations A11069G is so rare that it would be astonishingly that it were happened twice only in hg. H".