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Thread: new papers about indo-european language origin

  1. #1
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    new papers about indo-european language origin

    http://www.academia.edu/31707046/Ind...iffusion_model

    Indo-European demic diffusion model

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    Could you give us the abstract?

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    This dissertation is up to date and is abundantly provided with diachronic maps of the cultural and (with less emphasis, in the maps) genetic phenomena under discussion. Well worth reading, and discussing in some threads that have been running for a good many months. I found a little "Acknowledgements" page that separates it from most of the other academic work in this field, that we often struggle to reconcile with our DNA project data:

    Screen Shot 2017-05-07 at 1.19.08 PM.jpg

    Indo-European demic diffusion model

    A dissertation by Carlos Quiles M.D., M.Sc.
    Ph.D. candidate
    Department of Anatomy, Cell Biology, and Zoology
    University of Extremadura

    Badajoz
    February 2017

    Abstract:

    Careful cross-disciplinary investigation of ancient DNA samples recently published supports a demic diffusion model for the expansion of Indo-European-speaking peoples of Yamna directly into central and western Europe through the Bell Beaker culture, challenging previous archaeological and linguistic theories based on the expansion through the Corded Ware culture. Potential consequences of this new model in archaeological and linguistic investigation are outlined, among them the development of a stable framework of time and space for Indo-European dialectal classification, allowing for a more precise dating of Indo-European branches and their splits and expansions, and why and how they might have occurred.
    Last edited by razyn; 05-07-2017 at 06:02 PM. Reason: Had neglected to answer the request for the abstract. Also added the title page info.

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    FYI: Back in March the author posted here

    Hi,

    I just wanted to add a hypothesis I have published, related to this thread:

    Indo-European diffusion model (Research Gate)

    (or if you prefer, in Academia.edu )

    It will certainly be wrong in many aspects, but still I think the simplified picture of what we know today is nearer to this. Until we get more aDNA samples, and everything changes, of course...
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post217786

    Thank you for the comments. And yes, Fig. 18 is an error, it should read R1b-U152. It's the problem with writing "Alpine WEP" and the like: apart from being inexact and arbitrary in the names, you get a lot of similar errors, but I believe writings in anthropology are difficult to follow if you stick with the formal names... Also, I haven't dedicated enough time to revise it, and it hasn't got a peer review, so there are many mistakes - I've already found some minor ones myself since posting it.

    I have received a private message about the raw maps I have used, but I cannot answer (not enough messages apparently), so here it goes:

    - I have used public domain raster maps from Natural Earth (http://www.naturalearthdata.com/), with Photoshop. If I were to do them again, I would think about selecting maps centered on Eurasia (or even Europe alone), since the distortion (width) turns to be quite annoying, compared to more "natural-looking" maps. On the other hand, the distortion had in fact some use when putting more than Y-DNA sample in the same location, since I could place them in a horizontal row without too much problem.
    - I would think twice before using Photoshop and raster images. Maybe vector images are the best option, especially for type and vector layers, which were a pain as they grew in number. I selected photography software because I was used to it from previous works with photographs (because of my work in anatomy for the thesis), and it seemed to me easier option. Of course the professional option is QGIS or similar GIS software. Also, the vector images from Natural Earth have more data on lakes and rivers, and I believe they would have provided valuable information to draw borders more exactly.
    - These were my first drawn maps (at least the first I have actually dedicated hours to), and they were only drawn to illustrate a point, so I don't think the end result is actually bad, but indeed improvable; it's just that I don't have too much time for anything lately.

    I also posted the full images in an old blog, in case anyone wants to reuse them: http://indo-european.info/indoeurope...ean-migration/

    Carlos
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post217899
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 05-07-2017 at 06:46 PM.
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    sorry,the last thing i want is to post the same link two times,i searched on google advanced with www.anthrogenetica.com but i didn't find that post , anyway i think the author did a very good work with his research and showing gratitude and humility in thanking and mentioning the dna project: I also appreciate the passionate work of volunteers and bloggers who help spread the culture, information and free opinions

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    I had forgotten about it until I started reading the abstract. His maps are very detailed. I thought it was well written.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    FYI: Back in March the author posted here

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post217786
    That's funny, I even "liked" the link about the paper itself, and commented. His response answered my question about the caption of Fig. 18 -- but I don't believe I saw the response. Some days, I'm just doing something else, and miss stuff. Also, I like it better now than I did in March. This time, I discovered the second link on his Academia upload. http://indo-european.info/indoeurope...ean-migration/ There one may view the maps without rotating the computer 90 degrees; also, I think there are a few more maps to be viewed there than in the dissertation. He had mentioned this link also in his response that I didn't see in March.
    Last edited by razyn; 05-07-2017 at 09:15 PM.

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  13. #8
    Hi, thank you Razyn for posting it – and also for emailing me, else I wouldn’t have noticed the post…

    This dissertation (or, better, long essay) I wrote 2 months ago posits something similar to what J.P. Mallory had proposed in ‘The Indo-Europeanization of Atlantic Europe’, in Celtic From the West 2 (which I found out recently) namely that North-West Indo-European - the ancestor of Italo-Celtic and Germanic, and probably Balto-Slavic (in the sense that it seems strongly influenced by a different Late Indo-European dialect) and other known western IE dialects expanded with the Bell Beaker culture, a hypothesis that is supported by the most recent radiocarbon data (and subsequent proposal of an eastern origin of the pre-Bell Beaker culture, linked to the Yamna expansion, by Volker and Heyd). As I outline in the paper, ancient DNA samples and genetic data (if only from haplogroups) from modern populations seem to support this new model, when connected with potential previous and posterior population expansions.

    The still most prevalent model followed by archaeologists, based on Gimbutas’ steppe migration model, links the Corded Ware culture expansion to an expansion of the Yamna culture. Gimbutas linked the expansion of Bell Beaker to the expansion of Yamna through Vučedol, and Corded Ware was associated with the expansion of a Germano–Balto-Slavic group. Even though linguistics has changed its mainstream view of the dialectalization of Late Indo-European in the past half century, the archaeological community (those who supported the steppe expansion, at least) has remained strongly linked to Gimbutas’ model. More recently David Anthony has supported a similar model (with a phylogenetic model of Proto-Indo-European dialects by Don Ringe), by explaining a dual expansion into Corded Ware by Pre-Germanic (through a mixed Old European – Indo-European Usatovo culture) and Pre-Balto-Slavic (through the Middle Dnieper culture), with eastern Bell Beakers expanding west speaking Italo-Celtic dialects. In my humble opinion, they follow convoluted linguistic models difficult to justify, unless dating proto-languages further back in time than is usually accepted.

    While a strong cultural connection between Yamna and Corded Ware is currently undeniable, and admixture analyses show a connection between steppe and both Bell Beaker and Corded Ware samples, the actual relationship is today far less clear than it was 10 years ago (when people, me among others, would simply assume a direct connection of North-West Indo-European from Yamna to Corded Ware due to the distribution of R1a in modern populations, and then from Corded Ware to Bell Beaker somehow in central Europe), and far more ancient samples from the Neolithic steppe, steppe-forest, and forest zone (and Eastern Europe) are needed to extract any strong conclusions. Having Gimbutas herself fought strong opposition against her theory, it might seem odd that today her view – adopted as mainstream – is also hard to change. However, it is only natural that, because many professionals and publications have taken this as the basic steppe migration model, a change to it would mean a change for them too, and that is a lot to handle and change...

    Since I published it, some known Indo-European linguists – which seemed to me to form a quite closed, strongly conservative community (probably because of my proposal of speaking Indo-European as a modern language) – have to my surprise contacted me to criticize some aspects, and have shown a much clearer grasp than miine of all anthropological disciplines involved in Indo-European studies, while some amateur geneticists who have contacted me behaved more like hooligans in their criticisms… My model remains a theory that I expect to develop further with more details and more genetic data, as they are published. As you know, there are some interesting upcoming samples (mainly from Bell Beaker) by the Reich Lab – and today its publication seems imminent. While the interpretation seems to be in line with what has been said in previous similar publications, the most interesting data will most likely be the actual samples, apparently already showing a lack of steppe ancestry in Iberian Bell Beakers, and a clear invasion of Bell Beaker peoples (hence R1b?) in Great Britain. Hopefully some new samples of Yamna and Corded Ware might give us interesting information, but I really doubt that it will radically change our views.

    I think that the weakest aspects of the model I proposed were the expansion of Indo-European Bell Beakers to the south - I remember to have hinted at the strong differences between central and southern Bell Beaker groups, but pointed nevertheless to a potential early expansion of Indo-European-speaking R-DF27 with the Bell Beaker culture, because after all that's the traditional view, that R1b was early in Iberia. It would be fascinating if proven that the Neolithic population in Iberia and southern France was replaced even later (maybe with the Urnfield culture expansion?), and therefore Lusitanian and Belgian could be more strongly connected with the expansion of Italo-Celtic. Another weak point is the expansion of R1a-M417 (which was not the main aim of the essay). I think I hinted at the “forest zone” as a whole without further details as the origin of its expansion, but a more simple western connection could link Usatovo and Old Europe to Corded Ware through the contact zone, as supported by Anthony and the location of the original Pre-Corded Ware cultures. That would justify its strong connection with steppe samples in admixture analyses, through innumerable ancient contacts with the western steppe.

    Anyway, my general view is that the only reasonable way to approach the Indo-European problem is through linguistics first; after all, the peoples whose place and time we want to find are defined by their language, Indo-European. Archaeology might be able to date some cultural developments potentially linked with Indo-European-speaking peoples, and genetics might give support to the expansion of peoples (and thus maybe languages) accompanying such cultural expansions. Recent genetic developments are quite interesting, in that we might be able to place Late Indo-European and North-West Indo-European speakers in place and time, but it seems to me that some people are trying to answer the Urheimat problem (and not only from an Indo-European perspective...) the other way around.

    I am looking forward to expanding and correcting the article and the maps when the new Bell Beaker paper is published, and if possible I would like to add information on admixture analyses, but I am thinking of writing the new work in a kind of collaborative project instead, because I don't think have enough time for this alone...
    Last edited by cacarlos; 05-08-2017 at 05:46 PM.

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  15. #9
    Just a follow-up to the message. David Anthony and his wife Dorcas Brown have published a (pre-print) paper summarizing how aDNA affects archaeological interpretations: https://www.academia.edu/32927784/Mo..._from_new_data

    I think this is a good summary of how many geneticists and archaeologists might be interpreting the most popular Admixture analyses published to date: Yamna->Corded Ware->Bell Beaker . As you can see, he now connects the western migration of Yamna into Hungary to Corded Ware (hence all IE languages?), doesn't mention Usatovo or Dnieper - or, for that sake, pre-Germanic or Balto-Slavic -, and it seems that what was previously asserted as a direct Yamna -> (Italo-Celtic) Bell Beaker is now placed into some kind of Corded Ware migration into Bell Beaker... That would fit quite well with the mainstream linguistic model of a North-Western Indo-European-speaking community migrating into Europe, but I feel that the weakest (archaeological and genetic) link of this theory is how Yamna (mainly R1b) migrated to the eastern part of Corded Ware (mainly R1a) and then (from the Rhine?) into Bell Baker (mainly R1b)...

    As you can see, this is an ad-hoc interpretation of archaeological finds, adapting and changing what he had said before (in his books and articles) to the most common interpretation of aDNA finds today. In that sense, it seems to me a wishful thinking similar to mine. Let's hope new Bell Beaker samples bring more information to work with.

    #Edit: It seems that the new papers are already here: Bell Beaker samples and Southeastern Europe
    Last edited by cacarlos; 05-10-2017 at 11:17 AM.

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    Steppe Homeland of Indo-Europeans Favored by a Bayesian Approach with Revised Data and Processing

    http://www.ram-verlag.eu/wp-content/...it.pdf#page=57

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