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Thread: new papers about indo-european language origin

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Observer View Post
    Study is behind pay-wall but here is something from Rune Iversen & Guus Kroonen interview about the study.
    Interesting that neither the HG substrate (in Germanic) nor the neolithic substrate got into Indo-Iranian at least as per the figure:


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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by cacarlos View Post
    (...)
    I'm not convinced by your attempts to dissociate N1c from Uralic languages. The oldest sample of N1c in Europe (although not fully confirmed, but still) dates back already to 2500 BC, in the area of Smolensk (p. 294, Table 3., sample A6: https://www.academia.edu/9452168/Arc...olbunova_E._ed ).

    This sample is probably slightly too old to be L1034 or VL29 (if we believe Y-Full’s age and TMRCA estimates) – which are associated with several Uralic populations (see for example Feher et al. 2015, “Y‑SNP L1034: limited genetic link between Mansi and Hungarian‑speaking populations”), but it is young enough to be L708, M2126 or L1026.

    L708 is the oldest branch of N1c that exists in Europe (all N1c haplogroup SNPs downstream of L708 can be found only to the east of Ural, but L708+ lineages can be found in populations living to the west of the Ural). TMRCA of L708 according to YFull was around 5500 BC (formation time was much earlier, 8800 BC), and already at that time N1c carriers could start colonizing Eastern Europe (European Russia): https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L708/.

    N1c's arrival to Scandinavia and the Baltic states indeed took place much later, but also the arrival of Uralic languages to these areas took place much later. I think that Proto-Uralic emerged in European Russia, and arrived late to the Baltic region. Check these maps from elisanet.fi website, showing proposed origin, migration and development of Finnic languages (according to this theory, Finnic-speakers expanded to Estonia and then Finland only between around 1200 BC and 500 BC):

    1. Proto-Uralic 2000 BC: http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi1.jpg

    2. West Uralic 1600 BC: http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi2.jpg

    3. Early Proto-Finnic 1200 BC: http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi3.jpg

    4. Middle Proto-Finnic 500 BC: http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi4.jpg

    I believe that N1c-L1026 was the Proto-Uralic Y-DNA:

    See this tree: https://s14.postimg.org/li0admzzl/N1c1a1.png

    According to YFull its TMRCA was around year 2700 BC:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L1026/

    I wouldn’t rule out also the presence of some older N1c branches – like L708 – among Proto-Uralic speakers. IMO it is only a matter of time until we find N1c in very old aDNA from the easternmost fringes of European Russia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post

    I wouldnt rule out also the presence of some older N1c branches like L708 among Proto-Uralic speakers. IMO it is only a matter of time until we find N1c in very old aDNA from the easternmost fringes of European Russia.
    Could very well be.

    In that case it would re-inforce the statistics of the present reality - where the numbers of speakers clearly points to an origin west of Volga;
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_peoples

    Which seems to collude with the diversity of dialects clearly points to the climatically and biologially prefereable part of the Uralian language-zone, namely the atlantic seafoods reaching the Gulf of Finland - from where the cultures first populating the oriental trade-routes between Europe and Central Asia actually originated.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Uralic_languages

    Proposed homelands of the Proto-Uralic language include:
    1) The vicinity of the Volga River, west of the Urals, close to the Urheimat of the Indo-European languages, or to the east and southeast of the Urals.
    2) Historian Gyula Lszl places its origin in the forest zone between the Oka River and central Poland.
    3) E. N. Setl and M. Zsirai place it between the Volga and Kama Rivers.
    4) According to E. Itkonen, the ancestral area extended to the Baltic Sea

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages
    Last edited by Boreas; 04-02-2021 at 09:28 PM.

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    Anyone who thinks the Uralic homeland was in central Poland should have their head examined. I support urheimat idea number 3, with Perm Krai/Bashkortostan being the center.

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  8. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Could very well be.

    In that case it would re-inforce the statistics of the present reality - where the numbers of speakers clearly points to an origin west of Volga;
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_peoples
    Number of speakers cannot testify anything - even less the number of speakers today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas
    Which seems to collude with the diversity of dialects clearly points to the climatically and biologially prefereable part of the Uralian language-zone, namely the atlantic seafoods reaching the Gulf of Finland - from where the cultures first populating the oriental trade-routes between Europe and Central Asia actually originated.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Uralic_languages
    Vertical diversity is more important than horisontal diversity. On the coasts of Baltic Sea there are only one branch present: Finnic. Per historical phonology, the deepest gap seems to be between the Finno-Permic and Ugro-Samoyedic languages.
    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Hakk...tolanguage.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas
    Proposed homelands of the Proto-Uralic language include:
    1) The vicinity of the Volga River, west of the Urals, close to the Urheimat of the Indo-European languages, or to the east and southeast of the Urals.
    2) Historian Gyula Lszl places its origin in the forest zone between the Oka River and central Poland.
    3) E. N. Setl and M. Zsirai place it between the Volga and Kama Rivers.
    4) According to E. Itkonen, the ancestral area extended to the Baltic Sea
    1, 3 and 4 includes the Volga-Kama fork, which is still clearly the best argued homeland.
    Number 2 ignores all the relevant linguistic results and is based on something else.

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  10. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    Number of speakers cannot testify anything - even less the number of speakers today.


    1, 3 and 4 includes the Volga-Kama fork, which is still clearly the best argued homeland.
    Number 2 ignores all the relevant linguistic results and is based on something else.
    Professor Guyla was a pretty well renown and honored academian - so one may ask what you actually refer to as "soemthing else"?
    https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A...3%A9n%C3%A9sz)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Professor Guyla was a pretty well renown and honored academian - so one may ask what you actually refer to as "soemthing else"?
    https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A...3%A9n%C3%A9sz)
    At least the outdated view that Samoyedic was the first branch to split off from Proto-Uralic. All Siberian homeland hypotheses are based on that.

    If you are interested in why it was not the first, here:
    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Prob...logenetics.pdf

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