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Thread: Take R1b L21+, L720+ for example: Gaels, but what does it tell us?

  1. #1
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    Take R1b L21+, L720+ for example: Gaels, but what does it tell us?

    OK, I'm being self-indulgent and starting a thread about a very specific Y-chromosome SNP, namely mine (R1b L21+ DF21+ L720+). It is however a very interesting instance. Here is an SNP found by Walk with the Y that is still "Dark Ages" (or late Roman, if that is appropriate for beyond the pale, to beginnings of High Medieval, by conventional ways of reckoning). What however can be said from it?

    Jim Wilson (of Britain's DNA/Scotland's DNA) estimates it would be found in 0.08% of the British population. To my astonishment this still would equal something like 50,000 people. It by all accounts appears Gaelic. Our bunch:

    O'Neil: Documented ancestor connected with Tipperary but a branch of an Ulster family
    McQuilkin: Rathlin Island
    MacLellan: Balemore on North Uist, Scotland
    MacInnes: Morvern, Scotland
    Davidson: 19th c. Glasgow

    plus the New World colonists:
    two MacIntosh associated with Nova Scotia
    Singleton, Farris, Williams--very closely related and possibly from a single immigrant ancestor despite different (and likely somewhat altered) surnames, in all likelihood part of the so-called "Scots-Irish" settlement of Virginia's Shenandoah Valley.
    McDonald of Texas

    I am not privy to the results that Britain's/Scotland's DNA have turned up, and the Genographic results have been botched and not corrected so far.

    So the sum of the results is, well, stretched initially from, perhaps, Antrim through the Scottish Isles to the west coast of Scotland. As some know my distant kinsman O'Neil sees possible familial relationships between the different clans and so on. I'm more inclined to focus on the geography myself, due to our relative perceptions of how useful surnames can or cannot be in isolation. I do consider myself lucky to have such an apparently geographically specific SNP.

    Can any of this evidence be really taken to infer social position or networks? Does it just represent how far the normal range of one family in a fairly distinct regional culture can spread in, say, 1500 years? If we can say no more about the contours of such a recent SNP, how can we hope to say anything about a more ancient one?
    architectural historian/material culture historian
    specialty: East/West interaction 17th to 19th centuries

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    Well you have to remember that Ireland and Scotland formed one ethno-linguistic space for a very long time. Someways it's like thinking about the history of Scandinavia. Movement occurred freely between the two, this is particulary evident with the likes of Gallowglasses and Redshanks coming to fight as mercanaries in Ireland. In the early 12th century probably the most geographically widespread language spoken in Ireland and Britain was not English (as it is today) but instead "Middle Irish".

    Regarding genographic project what issues are you seeing at the moment. It might be worth asking ScotlandsDNA if they have include L720 in their new chip/product. Obviously the more people tested the more likely you will find matches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    Well you have to remember that Ireland and Scotland formed one ethno-linguistic space for a very long time. Someways it's like thinking about the history of Scandinavia. Movement occurred freely between the two, this is particulary evident with the likes of Gallowglasses and Redshanks coming to fight as mercanaries in Ireland. In the early 12th century probably the most geographically widespread language spoken in Ireland and Britain was not English (as it is today) but instead "Middle Irish".

    Regarding genographic project what issues are you seeing at the moment. It might be worth asking ScotlandsDNA if they have include L720 in their new chip/product. Obviously the more people tested the more likely you will find matches.
    ScotlandsDNA has L720 on their chip (thanks to me) but I do not have access to their data. We have been testing the SNP long enough that I don't expect many great divergences in the future. The genographic project botched my test by their own admission, so we have to wait around until they find another person with the SNP for them to test, since even for their own benefit they won't rerun tests.

    I agree with your statement and think in this instance that the distribution actually expresses a geo-political realm of a sort, and one that existed as arguably distinctive until the 15th century.

    I can't say that I think the family of brothers actually helps demarcate much else, though. The range of surnames suggests later existence within a clan system but not the origin of the family per se, in my opinion. Does the distribution actually express the Dal Riata? Or simply the spread of a family across a culturally united realm over centuries? Of course some might even say it could have something to do with Roman period Britain, because some people think the Epidii were Gaels.

    I think it must be a rather average size family for its age. Attributing its existence or spread to anything in particular seems problematic. I raise this as an examination with a more recent SNP of the sort of things people are apt to attribute to older SNPs. This is intended as a methodological inquiry as much as it is a search for answers (I'm relatively happy to say my paternal line would seem to be Scots at this point).
    architectural historian/material culture historian
    specialty: East/West interaction 17th to 19th centuries

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    How interesting! My male cousins, Mc/MacLellans with ancestral origins in South Uist, are also positive at L720. I believe I've seen your kit in the surname project at FTDNA. Our line immigrated to Prince Edward Island in Canada in 1790 from a small coastal community near Ben Corrodale on the east coast of South Uist. The male ancestor who made the trip across the pond was married to a Stewart from North Uist and I've always been curious as to how a North Uist woman and a South Uist man would have met in the 1700's. Perhaps he was kin to your John McLellan from Balemore?

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    I am R1b - L21 (S145) >DF21 (S192) >(S299) (L720) with ancestors from Skye that go back to Morvern in 1500, (migrated to Skye by c 1510 I suspect), and all MacInnes like me. If you would like more info let me know.

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    Where did you get the DNA test from that indicated that O'Neil was positive L720+... and also where did the McQuilkin: Rathlin Island result come from please... ? Estimate now with positive tests is 0.13% of male population...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leitir Fura View Post
    Where did you get the DNA test from that indicated that O'Neil was positive L720+... and also where did the McQuilkin: Rathlin Island result come from please... ? Estimate now with positive tests is 0.13% of male population...
    I see you have been busy posting and that you actually have given your surname as McInnes so you can disregard my request for your details on the other thread

    To answer your question I WAS THE FIRST PERSON TO COMMERCIALLY TEST for L720 on 10/05/2011 after it was discovered in Jonathan Farris's DNA so I take it from your comment that you are shocked to be associated with the Irish, this does not surprise me given my experience with the Clan McInnes project, below is the contents of an email I sent to the project on Thu 06/10/2011 23:10, YES THAT IS NEARLY FIVE YEARS AGO



    Hi, my name is Seamus O’Neill from Ireland. I have been working for sometime on what appears to be an ancient Dalriada cluster of which three to date including myself, a Farris, and a MacLellan have all have tested positive for the new SNP DF21. There is a cluster in your project group that seems to fit this group well with the following kit numbers

    66587
    197174
    89266
    161880
    36977
    205362

    Is there any chance that any one of these members could be persuaded to test for DF21 which costs $29 from FTDNA, the signs are very good for a positive result based on matches to the group on some key markers. I have included a link to the DF21 project if you want to take a look. Thank you for your time.

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    Kind Regards
    Seamus O’Neill


    I RECEIVED NO RESPONSE TO THIS EMAIL, OR TO OTHER SIMILAR EMAILS I SENT TO THE PROJECT OVER THE PERIOD OF A YEAR

    This left me in no doubt that this was an Anti-Irish attitude which is fine by me, I subsequently contacted through YSearch a very nice McInnes chap who had no problem in ordering the L720 test which sure enough was positive and he also joined the DF21 project which proved that the attitude of the project (which I have no doubt is the same as your own) was not shared by all the people in the project.

    To suggest that L720 is Scottish Pictish in origin and originated in Scotland simply underlines you own desire not to be associated with Ireland however this theory is completely refuted by the extremely high amount of Irish surnames that are displayed in the upstream SNP's that exist between S5488 and S7200, indeed it actually goes from nearly 100% Irish pre-S7200 to 90% Scottish post-S7200 SNP which support the Book of Ballymote pedigree showing the Scottish line to Erc splitting from the Irish line at Aongus Tuirimheach 81st Monarch who had a Son Fiacha Fearmara from whom stem the Dal Riada (229 BC Approx) This is absolutely supported by the number of non-matching SNP's between the L720 people and the S7200 cluster and also the Genetic distance between STR markers.

    You are incorrect to state that L720 is the terminal SNP for this cluster, there are two distinct clusters, namely your own group and the O'Neill cluster, you do not have the following SNP's 13225167, 19446955, 21230642, 23636846, these are unique to the O'Neill's and R-Z16305 which seems to define your group, also there are distinct STR marker differences between the two groups such as a DYS444 value of 13 and others for your group. The origin of your group is most likely the Driscoll clan in Ireland who are of the Dal Fiatach line, you will find an L720+ Driscol from Cork in the Driscol project group that shares you distinct STR pattern and with whom you share a common ancestor from 1500 years ago.

    If you feel you are a Scottish Pict that is your prerogative but at least try to support this with some actual research besides wishful thinking

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    I see by comment made by others that you like to lead with the chin. So be it. I have no problem being associate with the Irish but I do not think at this early stage that you can assume anything as you seen to be. I don't mind either way which way the outcome lies but being new to this I was only taking it that L720 / S299 and a common ancestor appears to have been Scottish and as indicated by others, but with the proviso that it is really too early to tell. As for down stream markers from L720 I have not been advised of any proven ones, and that ScotlandDNA advise that my terminal SNP is S299, which is L720.
    As you are obviously more knowledgeable than me maybe you can advise me how I can convert my ScotlandDNA SNP results to STR values, or is this not possible...? Any help appreciated. Clinton mhic Aonghais

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leitir Fura View Post
    I see by comment made by others that you like to lead with the chin. So be it. I have no problem being associate with the Irish but I do not think at this early stage that you can assume anything as you seen to be. I don't mind either way which way the outcome lies but being new to this I was only taking it that L720 / S299 and a common ancestor appears to have been Scottish and as indicated by others, but with the proviso that it is really too early to tell. As for down stream markers from L720 I have not been advised of any proven ones, and that ScotlandDNA advise that my terminal SNP is S299, which is L720.
    As you are obviously more knowledgeable than me maybe you can advise me how I can convert my ScotlandDNA SNP results to STR values, or is this not possible...? Any help appreciated. Clinton mhic Aonghais
    Quote Originally Posted by Leitir Fura View Post
    I see by comment made by others that you like to lead with the chin
    You mean to say people don't like me? how will I sleep tonight knowing this. Well when people claim that DF21 originated in Belgium 2000 years ago based on one individual and there are Genetic distances between Irish clusters with marker mismatches of over 50% at 111 then common sense tells you that DF21 has been in Ireland for over 4000 years so I was simply arguing for the truth, Rathlin proved I was right for both DF21 and S5488, yes I have fought many heated battles on this forum and won most of them so I apologise to no one for this

    Quote Originally Posted by Leitir Fura View Post
    I do not think at this early stage that you can assume anything as you seen to be
    This is really very simple, If a ship full of Native American's came to Ireland 1000 years ago and adopted Irish surnames then based on their DNA matches for this period and using your West Scotland logic for L720 you could define a Native Irish cluster however all upstream matches will clearly lead back to North America and their true origin, you can clearly see this with S5488 because the progression from Irish to Scottish surnames is very clearly defined and can leave one in no doubt as to the Irish origin of this line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leitir Fura View Post
    maybe you can advise me how I can convert my ScotlandDNA SNP results to STR values, or is this not possible.
    FTDNA will convert only from the old Sorensons database so they cannot help, you can send your deep ancestry results to the Scottish DNA project for their research (link below) but they will not be able to give you STR markers, the one advantage that you have is that you know your SNP type so a simple 12 marker test with FTDNA would be enough to allow you to join the DF21 project, you can increase your markers each time there is a sale on at FTDNA.


    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background

  10. #10
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    Thanks for your help in understanding. I like you have the never give up gene .... Apologies if the following question is stupid. Has anyone predicated an approximate age four a common ancestor that is L720...? Was it around the time of the creation of the kingdom of Dal Riata in Scotland? What are the current predictions for S5488, L7200, etc as no doubt these change with more data? Any help in understanding appreciated.. Trying to get my head around this time wise ...
    Last edited by Leitir Fura; 07-07-2016 at 09:25 PM.

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