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Thread: YFull STR matches

  1. #21
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    My “close” str matches per YFull aren’t valid as SNP comparisons show no common ancestor!

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  3. #22
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    Are you sure you have looked are back far enough? (I'm not sure what you mean by SNP comparisons in this context, so might be missing something.) If you read upthread in this thread you can see that even close matches may have the MRCA quite far back, although in genealogical time.

    This is useful: http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/tmrca.htm

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryMc View Post
    My “close” str matches per YFull aren’t valid as SNP comparisons show no common ancestor!
    With my distant matches, I note we only share the snp R-Z283 but then deviate, I think the age of that snp is over 4000 yrs old.
    But YFull says they are working on their STR engine, not sure what could change for your close matches. What is the estimate for the age of common ancestor?
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  6. #24
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    R1a Y17491>YP4858>

    I still feel like I am lost.

    I would appreciate if one can shed some light on this.

    Here are the facts;
    - I have done Y12 and then BigY with FTDNA
    - I do not have a BigY match on FTDNA system (due to 30 nonmatching variants constraint)
    - I have loaded my VCF to YFull (because of delays in FTDNA BAM submittals)
    - I have got my SNP matches on YFull (my closest match's TMRCA 2500 ybp)
    - I have recently upgraded to Y111 and waiting for my results (I wonder if I will have any close YDNA matches and what it will mean)
    - I have started getting STR matches in YFull (mostly distant ones (38 distant matches)

    And questions;

    Actually I have one critical question at this point. I am pretty sure that this has been discussed I will ask it any way.

    - Where should I look for matches, which one is more important and which one tells me what??
    - As I stated above I have three SNP matches in YFull, closest one's TMRCA is 2500 ybp, and he is not an STR match in YFull, why?
    - I do share the last step of my haplogroup with my SNP match I know this is important but should I consider my SNP match as the closest possible YDNA match to me?
    - Today I've got a close STR match in YFull with a distance of 0.1 (231 compared STRs, 23 difference). How close is this?
    - I already have read the posts in this thread and according to the TMRCA calculator suggested in the previous pages "this match has a chance of being 16th generation (with a probability of 11%)" what does this mean?
    - This close STR match of YFull has a different subclade. He is R-YP4078, and I am R-FGC64132. The sequence is same for both of us down until R-Z282. Then my match differs to be R-Z282 > R-Z280 > R-Z24902 > R-YP561 > R-YP4094 and my line goes like this R-Z282 > R-Y17491 > R-YP4858 > R-FGC64132. Is it possible to have a closer STR match then an SNP match?

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by alhan View Post
    I still feel like I am lost.

    I would appreciate if one can shed some light on this.

    Here are the facts;
    - I have done Y12 and then BigY with FTDNA
    - I do not have a BigY match on FTDNA system (due to 30 nonmatching variants constraint)
    - I have loaded my VCF to YFull (because of delays in FTDNA BAM submittals)
    - I have got my SNP matches on YFull (my closest match's TMRCA 2500 ybp)
    - I have recently upgraded to Y111 and waiting for my results (I wonder if I will have any close YDNA matches and what it will mean)
    - I have started getting STR matches in YFull (mostly distant ones (38 distant matches)

    And questions;

    Actually I have one critical question at this point. I am pretty sure that this has been discussed I will ask it any way.

    - Where should I look for matches, which one is more important and which one tells me what??
    - As I stated above I have three SNP matches in YFull, closest one's TMRCA is 2500 ybp, and he is not an STR match in YFull, why?
    - I do share the last step of my haplogroup with my SNP match I know this is important but should I consider my SNP match as the closest possible YDNA match to me?
    - Today I've got a close STR match in YFull with a distance of 0.1 (231 compared STRs, 23 difference). How close is this?
    - I already have read the posts in this thread and according to the TMRCA calculator suggested in the previous pages "this match has a chance of being 16th generation (with a probability of 11%)" what does this mean?
    - This close STR match of YFull has a different subclade. He is R-YP4078, and I am R-FGC64132. The sequence is same for both of us down until R-Z282. Then my match differs to be R-Z282 > R-Z280 > R-Z24902 > R-YP561 > R-YP4094 and my line goes like this R-Z282 > R-Y17491 > R-YP4858 > R-FGC64132. Is it possible to have a closer STR match then an SNP match?
    I am in the same boat as you, in trying to understand all this.
    I was under the impression that the snp are the real deal, so this would be your closest match. Especially Since the STR, divert down a different branch in your haplotype tree.

    I believe YFull are working on upgrading your STR from your BAM, and changing the STR engine software, so could be by October, all your STR matches disappear or change, but I am no expert.

    Hope someone who is willl pipe up here.
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  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by alhan View Post
    I still feel like I am lost.

    I would appreciate if one can shed some light on this.

    Here are the facts;
    - I have done Y12 and then BigY with FTDNA
    - I do not have a BigY match on FTDNA system (due to 30 nonmatching variants constraint)
    - I have loaded my VCF to YFull (because of delays in FTDNA BAM submittals)
    - I have got my SNP matches on YFull (my closest match's TMRCA 2500 ybp)
    - I have recently upgraded to Y111 and waiting for my results (I wonder if I will have any close YDNA matches and what it will mean)
    - I have started getting STR matches in YFull (mostly distant ones (38 distant matches)

    And questions;

    Actually I have one critical question at this point. I am pretty sure that this has been discussed I will ask it any way.

    - Where should I look for matches, which one is more important and which one tells me what??
    - As I stated above I have three SNP matches in YFull, closest one's TMRCA is 2500 ybp, and he is not an STR match in YFull, why?
    - I do share the last step of my haplogroup with my SNP match I know this is important but should I consider my SNP match as the closest possible YDNA match to me?
    - Today I've got a close STR match in YFull with a distance of 0.1 (231 compared STRs, 23 difference). How close is this?
    - I already have read the posts in this thread and according to the TMRCA calculator suggested in the previous pages "this match has a chance of being 16th generation (with a probability of 11%)" what does this mean?
    - This close STR match of YFull has a different subclade. He is R-YP4078, and I am R-FGC64132. The sequence is same for both of us down until R-Z282. Then my match differs to be R-Z282 > R-Z280 > R-Z24902 > R-YP561 > R-YP4094 and my line goes like this R-Z282 > R-Y17491 > R-YP4858 > R-FGC64132. Is it possible to have a closer STR match then an SNP match?
    I am in the same boat as you, in trying to understand all this.
    I was under the impression that the snp are the real deal, so this would be your closest match. Especially Since the STR, divert down a different branch in your haplotype tree.

    I believe YFull are working on upgrading your STR from your BAM, and changing the STR engine software, so could be by October, all your STR matches disappear or change, but I am no expert.

    Hope someone who is willl pipe up here.
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  11. #27
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    Close matches are defined by YFull as matches with a genetic distance of less than 0.1, and distant matches as matches with a genetic distance of 0.1 to 0.2. This is not to be confused with the genetic distance used by FTDNA in their STR matches. The formula at YFull for calculating genetic distance is the number of differences divided by the number of Compared STRs. For example: 49/392 = 0.125. https://www.yfull.com/faq/str-matches/

    So this is a back of the envelope calculation that doesn't take account of the mutation rates of individual STRs. We have a fair bit of an idea on the mutation rates of several of the Y111 STRs at FTDNA as they have been compared in databases and projects over the years - some are fast mutating markers, some are very stable and slow mutating. We don't have a lot of knowledge currently about the mutation rates of additional markers outside of Y111 than can be extracted from the BAM by YFull or the Y500 by FTDNA. Some of these may be fast mutating, so you can get a match with someone through a back mutation or a parallel mutation , some of these may be slow mutating STR markers and so you can match with someone because the marker hasn't changed through the generations while SNP mutations have occurred in the lines of descent. In both cases the STR data could make a relationship between two samples appear to be closer than it is compared to the SNP data (STR convergence) . So it is possible to get a close STR match to someone who isn't a close SNP match. It's also possible to work the other way where a SNP match has enough mutations that move the relationship from close to distant under this criteria (STR divergence). YFull only includes samples that have an estimated age of 5000 ybp or younger (using TMRCA from the YTree) in the STR matches report, so you shouldn't get anything super wacky like a R1b individual matching a I1 individual, but there is scope to match people within a overall subclade branch that may not necessarily be your own terminal.

    Until we have a better idea about the mutation rate of the extra STRs, I'd focus on the SNP data as more reliable and then look into the STR data of the SNP matches to see if there can be a bit more fine tuning. For the STR close matches that are not SNP matches, I'd put looking at those on the backburner as more likely to be false positives due to STR convergence.

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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by alhan View Post
    Actually I have one critical question at this point. I am pretty sure that this has been discussed I will ask it any way.

    - Where should I look for matches, which one is more important and which one tells me what??
    SNP tells you your specific subclade. It's important for understanding ancient origins, although we don't yet know enough about some subclades that are less common. Eventually it should be refined enough that your closest SNP matches and closest STR matches will likely overlap, and your closest SNP matches will be meaningful (some are now, as with some that have been attached to clans), but for a great many of us our closest SNP match is a very long time ago (your 2500 ybp), so that is interesting in trying to start understanding ancient origins or migration patterns (my dad's is even longer ago, and I think it's quite possible many people in France who aren't testing would be matches as DF63 and its branches seem to be a bit more continental than some other subclades of L21) so it can be very frustrating.

    - As I stated above I have three SNP matches in YFull, closest one's TMRCA is 2500 ybp, and he is not an STR match in YFull, why?
    Not a close enough match. 2500 ybp is very distant.

    I do share the last step of my haplogroup with my SNP match I know this is important but should I consider my SNP match as the closest possible YDNA match to me?
    Until you get closert SNP matches, your STR matches (who haven't also done BigY -- I don't think this applies if they've done BigY, see below, then it just shows you more about how close they are) are likely going to be closer and more helpful for testing, but sounds like your subclade is rarer so you won't have particularly close matches or not many. Sometimes, though, you get close STR matches that aren't SNP matches just because they haven't done BigY. My dad's closest STR matches on FTDNA (37 with 0, 2 and 3 GB, 67 with 6 and 7 GD) haven't done BigY, for example. And only the 37 with 0GD is likely to be close and its hard to say without more than a 37 on his part.

    - Today I've got a close STR match in YFull with a distance of 0.1 (231 compared STRs, 23 difference). How close is this?
    I don't remember off-hand, but the link I posted in my prior post gives information. I vaguely recall that it's so-called genealogical time but can vary a lot, from pretty close to MRCA of 500 years back. But check the link!

    - I already have read the posts in this thread and according to the TMRCA calculator suggested in the previous pages "this match has a chance of being 16th generation (with a probability of 11%)" what does this mean?
    Is this from my link? Check the box that says create list, and it should tell you the change of the match being at a certain generation or before. So -- without getting into the weeds -- if you have 111 match and 3 GD, it will say it's 1.6% chance of being 1 generation back, but 48% chance of being no more than 5 generations back, and 96% chance of being no more than 12 generations back. But that still could mean a long way back. If you put in your numbers from YFull it will give you an estimate like that.

    I put in your 23 and 231, and, yeah, got 1.6% at 10 generations, 46% at 16 generations, and 96% at 23 generations, so quite far back, and you can also look at the age of your common subclade (from the SNP) to get an estimate cap on distance.

    - This close STR match of YFull has a different subclade. He is R-YP4078, and I am R-FGC64132. The sequence is same for both of us down until R-Z282. Then my match differs to be R-Z282 > R-Z280 > R-Z24902 > R-YP561 > R-YP4094 and my line goes like this R-Z282 > R-Y17491 > R-YP4858 > R-FGC64132. Is it possible to have a closer STR match then an SNP match?
    If he hasn't done the tests, yes. But if you've done the tests, then your SNP match would seem like he must be closer -- but I'd like other opinions on this, since I'm not sure, I just can't see how it could be otherwise.
    Last edited by msmarjoribanks; 07-24-2018 at 01:19 PM.

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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by msmarjoribanks View Post

    I put in your 23 and 231, and, yeah, got 1.6% at 10 generations, 46% at 16 generations, and 96% at 23 generations, so quite far back, and you can also look at the age of your common subclade (from the SNP) to get an estimate cap on distance.
    Thank you very much for the detailed answer appreciate that.

    According to the TMRCA calculator you referred the calculations tell me that 96 percent chance of being in the last 23 generations.
    Can I assume 31 years per generation and tell that 23x31 = 713 years (as a very rough figure, ignoring the fact that the mutation rates differ and all other details) for TMRCA according to STR variation.

    700 years something quite far back but still seems pretty close to me, at least closer than what I expected. Especially considering that our common SNP lines differed about 4600 years ago.

    I have found another calculator that is in line with SNP aging. It is right here;

    http://www.dna.cfsna.net/HAP/MLE.htm

    Here are the results;

    Generations Ago 63 < 87.8 < 124
    Years Ago 1950 < 2720 < 3840
    Year of Birth 1891 BC < 761 BC < 10 AD
    Probability TMRCA = MLE 2.2%
    τ << 1 0.11

    2720 years for TMRCA sounds more appropriate. But I am not in a position to judge how these calculators work and compare, so I will leave it as it is. And wait for YFull to fully process my BAM file and give final STR set.

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  17. #30
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    It's all a huge estimate, so I'd think the greater distance is likely correct given the SNP results.

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