Page 1 of 10 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 92

Thread: U152 Specific Discussions from the New Papers released 10 May 2017

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,402
    Sex
    Location
    Tierra de Ayllon
    Y-DNA (P)
    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>
    mtDNA (M)
    H1bt
    Y-DNA (M)
    I2a2a1b2a1b1>Y4925
    mtDNA (P)
    H37

    England Scotland Wales Germany Ireland Sweden Finns

    U152 Specific Discussions from the New Papers released 10 May 2017

    Per new papers. Quotes from what Richard Rocca found so far.
    New Bell Beaker U152+ Samples:

    -I3875 BB_Southern_France France U152>L2 2459-2242 BCE Mean 2351 BCE
    -I2365 BB_Central_Europe Hungary U152>L2 2465-2205 BCE Mean 2335 BCE
    -E09569 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2397-2149 BCE Mean 2273 BCE
    -I3589 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2300-2150 BCE Mean 2225 BCE
    -I3597 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2300-2150 BCE Mean 2225 BCE
    For reference
    -I0805 BB_Central_Europe U152 from Quedlinburg, Germany, U152>PF6658 2467-2142 BCE Mean 2305 BCE
    -RISE563 BB_Central_Europe U152 from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany. Cant find any dates for this site but based on this reference it has to be no earlier than 2500 BCE and no later than 1800 BCE. Lacking anything more concrete, a Mean of 2150 BCE
    -RISE471 Tumulus Culture, Untermeitingen, Germany, 1675-1515 BCE


    In their large-scale study on radiocarbon dating of the Bell Beakers, J. Müller and S. Willingen established that the Bell Beaker Culture in Central Europe started after 2500 BC
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post233560

    My prediction of the Beglietkeramik samples belonging to the L2 subclade looks pretty strong as all these BB U152+ samples are also L2+
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post233565

    R1b1a1a2a1a2b1=R-U152>L2 in ISOGG tree version 11.110 (21 April 2016) which was used as reference in paper
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 05-11-2017 at 01:08 AM. Reason: Date ranges added
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 5% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

  2. The Following 15 Users Say Thank You to MitchellSince1893 For This Useful Post:

     Bolgeris (05-13-2017),  Cascio (11-22-2017),  Celt_?? (05-11-2017),  DillonResearcher (05-10-2017),  emmental (05-10-2017),  GailT (05-10-2017),  gotten (05-11-2017),  kinman (05-11-2017),  Kwheaton (05-12-2017),  Larth (05-31-2017),  ML Hill 6342 (05-11-2017),  Osiris (05-10-2017),  Ravai (05-11-2017),  Rheiner (02-27-2019),  TigerMW (05-10-2017)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,402
    Sex
    Location
    Tierra de Ayllon
    Y-DNA (P)
    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>
    mtDNA (M)
    H1bt
    Y-DNA (M)
    I2a2a1b2a1b1>Y4925
    mtDNA (P)
    H37

    England Scotland Wales Germany Ireland Sweden Finns
    I updated the samples with dates Richard provided in an email
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 5% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to MitchellSince1893 For This Useful Post:

     emmental (05-10-2017),  Osiris (05-10-2017)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,402
    Sex
    Location
    Tierra de Ayllon
    Y-DNA (P)
    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>
    mtDNA (M)
    H1bt
    Y-DNA (M)
    I2a2a1b2a1b1>Y4925
    mtDNA (P)
    H37

    England Scotland Wales Germany Ireland Sweden Finns
    For reference, a quick map showing the 7 known U152 Bell Beaker sample locations above.



    Note 1 Two samples are at same location in southern Germany, hence 6 rather than 7 pins.

    U152-BB-Triangle.jpg

    Note 2. RISE471 Tumulus Culture, Untermeitingen, Germany, 1675-1515 BCE isn't on the map but it would be directly west (left) of the blue midpoint pin right below the red pin shown.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 05-10-2017 at 11:18 PM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 5% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

  6. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to MitchellSince1893 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (05-10-2017),  DillonResearcher (05-10-2017),  dp (06-17-2017),  gotten (05-11-2017),  JMcB (05-10-2017),  K33 (05-11-2017),  kinman (05-11-2017),  Michał (05-11-2017),  Osiris (05-10-2017),  Pribislav (05-10-2017)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    388
    Sex
    Location
    Honolulu, Hawaii
    Ethnicity
    7/8 European,1/8 Hawaiian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-L2>BY4242-Germany
    mtDNA (M)
    H3h-Germany
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-FT41362-Azores, Pt
    mtDNA (P)
    W6a-Slovakia

    United States of America Germany Italy Azores Slovakia Hawaii
    I love this stuff, being an L2 myself. It's unanswerable but I wonder if any of these guys heard of the first carrier of L2. With such a spread you'd think he would be hidden too far back in the past but maybe I'm underestimating the ability of people to spread out within a century or two. Living memory in my family went back 150 years (5 generations) before I started writing things down.

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Osiris For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (05-10-2017),  wombatofthenorth (07-08-2017)

  9. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,402
    Sex
    Location
    Tierra de Ayllon
    Y-DNA (P)
    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>
    mtDNA (M)
    H1bt
    Y-DNA (M)
    I2a2a1b2a1b1>Y4925
    mtDNA (P)
    H37

    England Scotland Wales Germany Ireland Sweden Finns
    IMO Yfull's dates are sometimes skewed by tiny sample sizes of some branches being averaged in with branches with large samples sizes, which affects the higher up branch date.

    If you look at tree version 5.03, L2 was formed 4400 ybp or 2450 BC. To me that seems a little too late based how widespread L2 was 100 to 200 years later. It's not impossible but it does seem optimistic.

    Z49 is the largest branch of L2 and Z142 is the largest branch of Z49...at least in the FTDNA project.

    If we start with the overall average for Yfull's 27 Z142 samples (rather than averaging the individual Z142 branch averages) and work back to L2, adding 144.41 years per SNP we get the following dates

    Z142 formed around 4314 ybp (2364 BCE)
    Z49 formed around 4458 ybp (2508 BCE)
    L2 formed around 4603 ybp (2653 BCE)
    U152 formed 4747 ybp (2797 BCE)

    This would give L2's descendants about 10 generations to be in all the locations shown on the map above. At a rate of 2.5 sons per generation having 2.5 sons on average, there would be almost 10000 L2 men after 10 generations.
    Or L2 and/or some of his recent descendants had multiple wives and scores of children.

    Of course these dates would have to mesh with U152's parent branch P312 and sister branches. I haven't reconciled the above dates with the other P312 branches...so caveat emptor
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 05-10-2017 at 11:48 PM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 5% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

  10. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to MitchellSince1893 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (05-10-2017),  dp (06-17-2017),  JMcB (05-10-2017),  Kwheaton (05-12-2017),  Osiris (05-10-2017)

  11. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,407
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Was the Hungarian L2+ guy considered Eastern/Cspel Bell Beaker?

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to TigerMW For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (05-10-2017),  wombatofthenorth (07-08-2017)

  13. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,402
    Sex
    Location
    Tierra de Ayllon
    Y-DNA (P)
    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>
    mtDNA (M)
    H1bt
    Y-DNA (M)
    I2a2a1b2a1b1>Y4925
    mtDNA (P)
    H37

    England Scotland Wales Germany Ireland Sweden Finns
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Was the Hungarian L2+ guy considered Eastern/Cspel Bell Beaker?
    He was found at the Békásmegyer site, which, looking at this source, may be Csepel .
    https://www.academia.edu/5785869/Fun...r_Csepel-Group

    Distribution of Burial Rite of Bell Beaker Csepel Group on North part of Budapest and surroundings 1: Budakalász-
    Csajerszke. 2: Békásmegyer...
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 05-11-2017 at 12:27 AM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 5% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to MitchellSince1893 For This Useful Post:

     palamede (05-11-2017)

  15. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,402
    Sex
    Location
    Tierra de Ayllon
    Y-DNA (P)
    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>
    mtDNA (M)
    H1bt
    Y-DNA (M)
    I2a2a1b2a1b1>Y4925
    mtDNA (P)
    H37

    England Scotland Wales Germany Ireland Sweden Finns
    Once Richard Rocca is able to get access to the samples we may discover additional SNPs below L2. This would help to improve age estimates. I wouldn't be surprised to see one or two SNPs younger than U152》L2 on some of these samples...hopefully ones from non-extinct lines.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 5% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to MitchellSince1893 For This Useful Post:

     dp (06-17-2017),  Kwheaton (05-12-2017)

  17. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,402
    Sex
    Location
    Tierra de Ayllon
    Y-DNA (P)
    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>
    mtDNA (M)
    H1bt
    Y-DNA (M)
    I2a2a1b2a1b1>Y4925
    mtDNA (P)
    H37

    England Scotland Wales Germany Ireland Sweden Finns
    Whoa! Just found something very interesting in the supplementary table for the The Beaker Phenomenon And The Genomic Transformation Of Northwest Europe paper
    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/201...2.figures-only

    They have dates for RISE563 BB_Central_Europe U152 from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany
    2572–2512 calBCE (3955±35 BP, Poz-84553) Midpoint is 2542 BCE

    I believe this would be the oldest dates for U152 and for P312?
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 05-11-2017 at 06:02 PM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 5% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

  18. The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to MitchellSince1893 For This Useful Post:

     Bolgeris (05-13-2017),  Celt_?? (05-12-2017),  Dewsloth (05-11-2017),  dp (06-17-2017),  Kelso (05-12-2017),  Kwheaton (05-12-2017),  lgmayka (05-12-2017),  Osiris (05-11-2017),  palamede (05-11-2017),  razyn (05-11-2017),  TigerMW (05-11-2017)

  19. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,407
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Whoa! Just found something very interesting in the supplementary table for the The Beaker Phenomenon And The Genomic Transformation Of Northwest Europe paper
    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/201...2.figures-only

    They have dates for RISE563 BB_Central_Europe U152 from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany
    2572–2512 calBCE (3955±35 BP, Poz-84553) Midpoint is 2542 BCE

    I believe this would be the oldest dates for U152 and for P312 for that matter.
    Thank you. This is Bavaria, not far from the Czech Rep. and Austria.

  20. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to TigerMW For This Useful Post:

     Bolgeris (05-13-2017),  Celt_?? (05-12-2017),  Dewsloth (05-11-2017),  MitchellSince1893 (05-11-2017)

Page 1 of 10 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-27-2019, 09:03 PM
  2. Replies: 39
    Last Post: 03-09-2019, 02:44 AM
  3. Replies: 20
    Last Post: 10-26-2017, 05:35 AM
  4. R1b Specific Thread for 10 May 2017 Papers
    By MitchellSince1893 in forum R1b General
    Replies: 129
    Last Post: 06-27-2017, 07:25 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •