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Thread: J-FGC3723 origins and current distribution

  1. #1
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    J-FGC3723 origins and current distribution

    Hi everybody,

    I would like to dedicate this specific thread to my own small but nevertheless interesting subclade FGC3273. I would also like to stimulate a discussion about its possible origins and its current distribution and discuss actual new results. The reason I decided to open a new thread is a brandnew result: FTDNA kit 438809, the only Yemeni Jewish kit in the J1 y-DNA project (with Levitical status!) has just turned out J-FGC3708 and we'll see soon if he's also FGC3706 which happens to be my subclade. Actually he's Z18258- and also Z18256- which is the other relevant subclade under FGC3708. Right now we have a FGC3723 concentration in Yemen and Saudi Arabia (Hijaz). The distribution map shows you that it could be present sporadically all over the Middle East. We have a Greek sample, a Portuguese one, a whole cluster in the Southern German speaking area (Germany and Austria). Quite a lot of Arabs with a Hashemite (Quraish) oral tradition, a Kurdish Jewish Kit and three Yemeni Jewish samples one with Levitical roots. One clade under Z18256 belongs to the Yafi tribe in Yemen but also other tribes like Madhhij, Ans, Akk, Nimr, Thaqif and Shammar and some others are present within FGC3723 and many samples claim a Himyarite origin! The clade is also present in Eritrea and Ethiopia maybe due to Sabaean colonies in the 2nd millennium BCE.

    The current distribution map can be found here:

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...3599999995&z=4

    The y-DNA results within the J1 project are here:

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults
    Last edited by Shamash; 05-12-2017 at 07:01 AM.

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  3. #2
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    Hello
    Interesting to see that you have J1-FGC3706 as your paternal haplogroup. We have J-FGC3708 as common SNP. Do you have any family history that links you to the middle east (assuming of course this subclade originated in the this region) ?
    btw I also have Himyarite ancestry.

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  5. #3
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    An association with Old South Arabian is extremely likely, IMO FGC3723 will be found in Razihi speakers.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    How old is this subclade?

  8. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by fished View Post
    How old is this subclade?
    FGC3723's TMRCA is about 5,000 years old.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  10. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    FGC3723's TMRCA is about 5,000 years old.
    I wonder how it wound up in Germany and Austria. Do any Ashkenazim belong to this subclade?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    An association with Old South Arabian is extremely likely, IMO FGC3723 will be found in Razihi speakers.
    Had never heard of Razihi, and had no clue anyone thought there were extant descendants of Old South Arabian. Thanks for the info! Surprising little material to browse online.

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  14. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akra20m View Post
    Hello
    Interesting to see that you have J1-FGC3706 as your paternal haplogroup. We have J-FGC3708 as common SNP. Do you have any family history that links you to the middle east (assuming of course this subclade originated in the this region) ?
    btw I also have Himyarite ancestry.
    Hi nice to meet you! I have no ties to the Middle East, my family is Austrian and I have no idea how we ended up being here. FGC3723 was first discovered a few years ago in the FullGenomes y-DNA sequence of my sample and I am still continuing to research it. It's a rather interesting and surprising subclade of FGC11.
    Last edited by Shamash; 05-12-2017 at 07:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fished View Post
    I wonder how it wound up in Germany and Austria. Do any Ashkenazim belong to this subclade?
    No, as fas as I know it's not present in Ashenazim, but in Mizrahim (Oriental Jews) as we have three Yemeni Jewish Kits and one Kurdish Jewish kit. The Kurdish Jewish kit's linguistic background is Aramaic.

    There are quite a few origin scenarios possible: my ancestor could have been a Yemeni soldier ending up in the Roman army or a Frankincense trader. Just remember that Minaean (Old South Arabian) inscriptions have been on the Greek island of Delos! In addition he could have been - at least in theory - also Yemeni Jewish. But this is all mere speculation and none of the scenarios could be true as well as we still don't know the distribution pattern of FGC3723 4000 and 3000 years ago. But the Yemeni Old South Arabian association is quite strong I'd say.
    Last edited by Shamash; 05-12-2017 at 07:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    FGC3723's TMRCA is about 5,000 years old.
    My personal guess is that it is quite a few centuries younger as FGC11 as a whole is estimated to be only 4600 years old, FGC3708 ca. 4300 years and FGC3706 (my subclade) ca. 3200 years while Z18256 is about 3800 years old. My closest SNP-match (FGC3706+) at the moment is a Yemeni kit belonging to the Al-Rassi family claiming descent from Ali. We'll see in a month if the Yemeni Jewish kit will eventually turn out to be also FGC3706+. All these dates are from Victar's J1 tree.

    Sorry for the three consecutive posts. Would have prefered the multiquote function.
    Last edited by Shamash; 05-12-2017 at 03:08 PM.

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