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Thread: J-FGC3723 origins and current distribution

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    An association with Old South Arabian is extremely likely, IMO FGC3723 will be found in Razihi speakers.
    Thanks for mentioning Razihi, which meanwhile is believed to be a direct descendant of OSA altough it is still not very researched. Angela Watson published 2011 a paper investigating the ties between modern Yemeni dialects and OSA referencing and quoting examples from Razihi:

    South Arabian and Yemeni dialects

    ABSTRACT
    It has traditionally been assumed that with the Islamic conquests Arabic overwhelmed the original ancient languages of the Peninsula, leaving the language situation in the south-western Arabian Peninsula as one in which dialects of Arabic are tinged, to a greater or lesser degree, with substrate features of the ancient South Arabian languages. The ancient Arab grammarians had clear ideas concerning the difference between the non-Arabic languages of the Peninsula and Arabic, including the -t feminine nominal ending in all states and -n versus the -l definite article.. Today, however, we read about ‘Arabic’ dialects that exhibit large proportions of ‘non-Arabic’ features. Here I compare phonological, morphological, lexical and syntactic data from several contemporary varieties spoken within historical Yemen – within the borders of current Yemen into southern ‘Asīr – with data from Ancient South Arabian, Sabaean, and Modern South Arabian, Mehri, as spoken in the far east of Yemen. On the basis of these comparisons I suggest that Arabic may not have replaced all the ancient languages of the Peninsula, and that we may be witnessing the rediscovery of descendants of the ancient languages.

    The Yemeni and ‘Asīri dialects considered are:
    Yemen: Rāziḥīt, Minabbih, Xašir, San‘ani, Ġaylħabbān
    ‘Asīr: Rijāl Alma‛, Abha, Faifi

    Keywords: Arabic, Semitic, Ancient South Arabian, Modern South Arabian, lateral sibilants, relative clauses

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  3. #12
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    Kit 438809, Kobashi (Yemeni jewish), turned out fgc3706- but is fgc3708+ and fgc3695- thus breaking up the fgc3708-node. FGC3723 is getting more and more substructured.

    FGC3723-node-with accentuated FGC3708.jpg

    This is FTDNA's most recent haplotree taking this into account:

    FGC3723-haplotree FTDNA.jpg
    Last edited by Shamash; 08-03-2017 at 06:39 AM.

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  5. #13
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    Not related to my subclade but nevertheless cool & interesting: a genetic Cohen from Yemen, FTDNA kit 476158, Al-Abdali from Wadi Yahar, عبدالله العبدلي العبادل-وادي يهر , J-Z18271, negative for the downstream SNPs: ZS237, S12192 & Z18290.

    Doesn't seem Jewish to me at this point but the sample is very likely of Jewish descent.

    Thus IMO it could be very probable that Israelites took part in the Judaization of Himyar.

    So we have Levitical Yemeni Jewish samples in Israel that most likely descend from converted Himyarites on the one hand and modern Muslim Arab samples from Yemen that most likely descend from Israelites! Isn't that exactly we want population history to be like? Why simple if it can be complex?
    Last edited by Shamash; 10-09-2017 at 08:20 PM.

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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamash View Post
    Not related to my subclade but nevertheless cool & interesting: a genetic Cohen from Yemen, FTDNA kit 476158, Al-Abdali from Wadi Yahar, عبدالله العبدلي العبادل-وادي يهر , J-Z18271, negative for the downstream SNPs: ZS237, S12192 & Z18290.

    Doesn't seem Jewish to me at this point but the sample is very likely of Jewish descent.

    Thus IMO it could be very probable that Israelites took part in the Judaization of Himyar.

    So we have Levitical Yemeni Jewish samples in Israel that most likely descend from converted Himyarites on the one hand and modern Muslim Arab samples from Yemen that most likely descend from Israelites! Isn't that exactly we want population history to be like? Why simple if it can be complex?
    I'm quite certain that Yemeni Jews have some Israelite ancestry, in fact I suspect that they are related to the Jewish tribes of Yathrib for instance (the Bani Qurayza were of Kohanic descent for example, so they probably carried J1-Z18271). This individual is probably descended from Yemeni Jews.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  9. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I'm quite certain that Yemeni Jews have some Israelite ancestry, in fact I suspect that they are related to the Jewish tribes of Yathrib for instance.
    Absolutely! Christian Julien Robin wrote in 2004 an essay on that including like you do Yathrib (modern Medina) as a crucial point in the Judaization process of Yemen: Himyar and Israel.

    Download link:

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...yar_and_Israel
    Last edited by Shamash; 10-09-2017 at 08:46 PM.

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  11. #16
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    The J-FGC3723 is found especially in tribes of Himyarite Origin. in the year 380 AC , King Abîkarib As'ad Converted to Judaism and decided to ban Polytheism from his Kingdom. In the 6th century Ac, religious troubles between yemeni christian an jews were at their summit. King Kaleb the Abyssinian invaded Himyar and put a christian Vassal. After the invasion most of yemeni jews fled the country.

  12. #17
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    A few new FGC3723+ samples have been added to the map.

    Interesting the fact that all these do not stem from the Southwestern part of the Arabian peninsula:

    * One sample hails origin from Arcadia in mainland Greece.

    * One from the Diyala province of Iraq.

    * A few from the Persian gulf area (Bahrain, Qatar and Dammam in KSA).

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...3599999995&z=4

    Noteworthy: the complete lack of FGC3723+ samples in the Levant so far!

    FGC3723_Distribution_Map_02_02_2018.jpg
    Last edited by Shamash; 02-02-2018 at 02:25 PM.

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  14. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamash View Post

    Noteworthy: the complete lack of FGC3723+ samples in the Levant so far!
    Last but not least we got our first Levantine FGC3723+ sample from Northwest Jordan. Interestingly negative for all subclades. BigY results are pending.

    Edit: The sample stems from Anjara and the FGC3723 distribution map has been updated!
    Last edited by Shamash; 05-20-2018 at 05:40 PM.

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  16. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamash View Post
    Last but not least we got our first Levantine FGC3723+ sample from Northwest Jordan. Interestingly negative for all subclades. BigY results are pending.
    Going off the contemporary data we are already seeing signs that the Levant was YSC234's diversity hotspot, I expect this to extend all the way back to L862 once we get more ancient data from the Levant.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  18. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Going off the contemporary data we are already seeing signs that the Levant was YSC234's diversity hotspot, I expect this to extend all the way back to L862 once we get more ancient data from the Levant.
    Agamemnon, looks like the Levant is one of our ancestral homelands!

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