Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 21

Thread: Genetic comparison between ethnic Turks in Anatolia&Balkans and the natives

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    134
    Ethnicity
    Turkish

    Turkey

    Genetic comparison between ethnic Turks in Anatolia&Balkans and the natives

    Hi everyone, I'd like to share these data I have gathered and prepared from several sources/places inorder to give you a clearer insight about the subject.

    The purpose of this thread is to make a comparison between Greeks/Armenians/Bulgarians and Turks from the same provinces/regions and examine the genetic impact of the Turkic migration. The general assumption is (or was) that the Turks brought only the East Eurasian component. There are also those who think that the Oghuz Turks (later became known as Turkmens) who migrated to Anatolia between the 11th and 14th centuries were genetically Eurasians, the latter opinion seems to be more plausible for the following reasons:

    • The Proto-Turkic language might have evolved among a population that was already mixed (East Eurasian + West Eurasian)
    • Rise504 (from Kytmanovo/Altai, 721-889 AD, Eastern Turkic Khaganate) has the haplogroup J2a and is genetically Eurasian, which also supports the theory above
    • Oghuz Turks who had inhabited the region east of the Caspian Sea for centuries must have become less proto-Turkic-like (genetically) by intermarriage with local populations. The gradual Turkification of Khwarezm and Sogd are well known examples. "By settlement and intermarriage the older Iranian population was eventually diluted; already in the 5th/11th century the physical approximation of the Khwarazmian people to the Turkish type was noted." (See the spoiler)
     




    I will use the individual results with relatively high East Eurasian admixture for comparisons in order to see the correlations between East Eurasian and other components, then I will post averages.

    (x) stands for sample size.

    Table 1: 1 Turk from Kayseri, 1 Greek from Kayseri, 2 Armenians from Kayseri

    I think the Greek sample represents pre-Turkic Kayseri population more accurately because Kayseri was mostly populated by Greeks (Rums) at the beginning of the 11th century even though the Byzantine Emperor had resettled thousands of Armenians from a region near the Lake Van to Cappadocia and Cilicia.

    If we take the Greek sample from Kayseri as a reference for pre-Turkic Kayseri population then the Turkish newcomers:
    • had more East_Eurasian (Siberian, East Asian, Southeast Asian)
    • had more North_European
    • had more Gedrosia
    • had less SW Asian
    • had less Caucasus
    • had less Atlantic_Med
    Component/Population
    Turk_Kayseri(1)
    Greek_Kayseri(1)
    Armenian_Kayseri(2)
    Gedrosia
    15.92
    13
    16.06
    Siberian
    6.54
    0.21
    0.26
    Northwest_African
    0.71
    0.32
    0.32
    Southeast_Asian
    0
    0
    0
    Atlantic_Med
    11.7
    16.99
    10.33
    North_European
    11.32
    6.1
    1.97
    South_Asian
    1.38
    0
    0.79
    East_African
    0.24
    0
    0.13
    Southwest_Asian
    11.2
    14.23
    14.19
    East_Asian
    6.83
    0
    0
    Caucasus
    34.16
    49.04
    55.96
    Sub_Saharan
    0
    0.11
    0


    ----------------------------



    Table 2:
    2 Turk from Niğde, 1 Greek from Niğde.

    The Turkic migration seems to have made these changes in Niğde:
    • East Eurasian increased
    • Gedrosia increased
    • North_European increased
    • Atlantic_Med decreased
    • Caucasus decreased
    • Southwest_Asian decreased
    Component/Population
    Turk_Niğde(2)
    Greek_Niğde(1)
    Gedrosia
    12.7
    10.21
    Siberian
    5.06
    0.36
    Northwest_African
    1.25
    0.43
    Southeast_Asian
    0
    0
    Atlantic_Med
    13.25
    20.11
    North_European
    12.1
    8.73
    South_Asian
    1.28
    0
    East_African
    0
    0
    Southwest_Asian
    11.55
    13.59
    East_Asian
    5.04
    0
    Caucasus
    37.6
    46.58
    Sub_Saharan
    0.19
    0



    ---------------------------------------


    Table 3: 1 Greek from Eskişehir-Konya-Kayseri, 4 Turks from Eskişehir-Konya-Kayseri (2 from Kayseri, 1 from Konya, 1 from Eskişehir)

    The Greek's ancestry is: 1/4 Eskişehir, 1/4 Konya and 1/2 Kayseri.

    • East Eurasian increased
    • Gedrosia increased
    • North_European increased
    • Atlantic_Med decreased
    • Caucasus decreased
    • Southwest_Asian decreased
    Component/Population
    Turk_Eskişehir-Konya-Kayseri(5)
    Greek_Eskişehir-Konya-Kayseri(1)
    Gedrosia
    15.33
    12.59
    Siberian
    5.40
    0.98
    Northwest_African
    0.50
    0.98
    Southeast_Asian
    0.71
    0
    Atlantic_Med
    13.20
    17.98
    North_European
    11.38
    8.28
    South_Asian
    1.03
    0.18
    East_African
    0.18
    0
    Southwest_Asian
    11.38
    12.93
    East_Asian
    5.42
    0
    Caucasus
    35.48
    46.08
    Sub_Saharan
    0
    0


    -------------------------------------------



    Table 4: Bulgarian Turk from Kardzhali (Kırcaali), Bulgarian average (dod k12b spreadsheet), Greek average (dod k12b spreadsheet)

    Pre-Turkic Kardzhali was Bulgarian, therefore Bulgarian average is a better reference for pre-Turkic Kardzhali:
    • East Eurasian increased
    • Gedrosia increased
    • SW_Asian increased
    • North_European decreased
    • Atlantic_Med decreased
    Component/Population
    Turk_Bulgaria(1)
    Bulgarian k12b average(10)
    Greek k12b average(15)
    Gedrosia
    9.92
    1.5
    3.3
    Siberian
    5.77
    0.9
    0.3
    Northwest_African
    0
    0.3
    0.6
    Southeast_Asian
    0.74
    0
    0
    Atlantic_Med
    17.33
    25.03
    28
    North_European
    24.74
    34.93
    20.02
    South_Asian
    1.69
    0.3
    0.1
    East_African
    0.1
    0
    0
    Southwest_Asian
    7.88
    5.71
    10.1
    East_Asian
    3.58
    0.6
    0
    Caucasus
    28.23
    30.73
    37.4
    Sub_Saharan
    0
    0
    0
    Last edited by Leper; 05-15-2017 at 03:56 PM.

  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Leper For This Useful Post:

     ba97200 (01-10-2018),  basmaci (11-27-2017),  Toguz (02-21-2021),  Whatever (02-04-2018)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    134
    Ethnicity
    Turkish

    Turkey
    West Eurasian components of Turks are also shared by their neighbours (in various levels), so the best way to see the impact of the Turkic migration on West Eurasian components is to focus on the correlation between East Eurasian and other components. As can be observed in the post above; in Asia Minor, East Eurasian components have a positive correlation with North_European and Gedrosia whereas the correlation with Caucasus, Southwest_Asian and Atlantic_Med is negative.

    We can easily assume that the Turkic newcomers were far from being 100% East Eurasian judging from the dramatic changes in West Eurasian components levels, which cannot be explained with East Eurasian input alone. The Turks had more North European and Gedrosian admixture than Greek-speakers (Rums) in Anatolia; their Caucasian, Southwest_Asian and Atlantic_Med admixture were less than that of Greek-speakers.

    Now with averages included.

    Table 5: Turk_Kayseri(1), Kayseri_Greek(1) and Kayseri_Turk_average(6)

    • The more East Eurasian; the more North_European and Gedrosia
    • The less East Eurasian; the more Caucasus, Atlantic_Med and Southwest_Asian

    Component/Population
    Kayseri_Turk(1)
    Kayseri_Greek(1)
    Kayseri_Turk average(6)
    Gedrosia
    15.92
    13
    14.32
    Siberian
    6.54
    0.21
    3.87
    Northwest_African
    0.71
    0.32
    0.91
    Southeast_Asian
    0
    0
    0.35
    Atlantic_Med
    11.7
    16.99
    13.02
    North_European
    11.32
    6.1
    9.68
    South_Asian
    1.38
    0
    1.20
    East_African
    0.24
    0
    0.12
    Southwest_Asian
    11.2
    14.23
    12.21
    East_Asian
    6.83
    0
    4.62
    Caucasus
    34.16
    49.04
    39.72
    Sub_Saharan
    0
    0.11
    0


    --------------------------------------


    Table 6: Turk_Giresun(2), Greek_Trabzon(5) and Turk_Trabzon(22)

    Turks and Greeks from Trabzon look almost identical, both seem to be native Eastern Black Sea populations. Trabzon's western neighbour, Giresun is a different case though. Both provinces were inhabited by Pontic Greeks prior to the Turkic migration. But the genetic difference between the modern populations of Giresun and Trabzon is huge due to several historical reasons.

    Look at the difference, these provinces are next to each other, the genetic impact of the Turkic migration can be observed in this comparison alone.
    • East Eurasian increases
    • Ancestral_Altaic increases
    • South_Central_Asian increases
    • European_Hunters_Gatherers increases

    • Caucasian decreases
    • Near_East decreases
    • European_Early_Farmers decreases
    Component/Population Turk_Giresun(2) Greek_Trabzon(5) Turk_Trabzon(22)
    Amerindian
    0.52
    0
    0.16
    Ancestral_Altaic
    4.37
    1.18
    1.59
    South_Central_Asian
    17.37
    15.84
    16.25
    Arctic
    0.85
    0.47
    0.2
    South_Indian
    0.16
    0.22
    0.77
    Australoid
    0.7
    0.66
    0.44
    Austronesian
    0.73
    0.07
    0.16
    Caucasian
    36.4
    52.19
    52.95
    Archaic_Human
    0.46
    0.06
    0.05
    East_African
    0
    0.06
    0.06
    East_Siberian
    6.23
    0
    0.04
    European_Early_Farmers
    7.86
    10.3
    9.45
    Khoisan
    0
    0
    0.04
    Melano_Polynesian
    0
    0
    0.52
    Archaic_African
    0
    0
    0.04
    Near_East
    7.08
    11.55
    11.33
    North_African
    1.44
    3.11
    2.77
    Paleo_Siberian
    0.2
    0.22
    0.17
    African_Pygmy
    0.06
    0.03
    0.13
    South_East_Asian
    1.03
    0.23
    0.11
    Subsaharian
    0
    0
    0.01
    Tungus-Altaic
    8.49
    0.07
    0.5
    European_Hunters_Gatherers
    6.08
    3.23
    2.27


    --------------------------------------------




    Table 7: 1 Turk from Manisa, 1 Turk from Denizli and Greek_Smyrna average from MDLP k23b spreadsheeT

    • East Eurasian increases
    • Ancestral_Altaic increases
    • South_Central_Asian increases
    • European_Hunters_Gatherers increases

    • Caucasian decreases
    • Near_East decreases
    • European_Early_Farmers decreases

    Component/Population Turk_Aegea(2) Greek_Smyrna(k23b spreadsheet)
    Amerindian
    0.24
    0.06
    Ancestral_Altaic
    3.65
    0.96
    South_Central_Asian
    14.18
    9.04
    Arctic
    0.32
    0.03
    South_Indian
    1.45
    0.54
    Australoid
    0.7
    0.17
    Austronesian
    0.51
    0.21
    Caucasian
    36.98
    43.04
    Archaic_Human
    0
    0.04
    East_African
    0.75
    0.13
    East_Siberian
    2.56
    0.3
    European_Early_Farmers
    9.97
    22.02
    Khoisan
    0
    0.11
    Melano_Polynesian
    0.76
    0.21
    Archaic_African
    0.08
    0.06
    Near_East
    8.73
    12.16
    North_African
    2.72
    2.74
    Paleo_Siberian
    1.03
    0.22
    African_Pygmy
    0
    0.08
    South_East_Asian
    1.4
    0.12
    Subsaharian
    0.04
    0.05
    Tungus-Altaic
    4.29
    0.10
    European_Hunters_Gatherers
    10.32
    7.61


    ------------------

    What I've noticed with West Anatolian Turks (Turkish_Aydin and Turkish_Balikesir) is that they form a cluster near the Caucasus on all the PCAs, one would expect them to cluster near South Europeans (or in between West Asia and South Europe) because pre-Turkic West Anatolia was closer to South Europe, but something pulls West Anatolian Turks towards the Caucasus, which can be explained with Central Asian admixture that also include various West Eurasian components.






    I will post the oracle results of some Anatolian Greeks to show you what pre-Turkic Central Anatolia was like genetically.

    • Greek from Niğde, Central Anatolia (I believe these results are belong to a member on here but I don't remember his/her username right now)
     

    # Population Percent
    1 Caucasian 43.19
    2 European_Early_Farmers 17.39
    3 Near_East 13.63
    4 South_Central_Asian 11.23
    5 European_Hunters_Gatherers 6.68
    6 North_African 4.52
    7 South_East_Asian 1.02
    8 Ancestral_Altaic 0.79
    9 South_Indian 0.72
    10 East_Siberian 0.5
    11 Paleo_Siberian 0.33

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Cretan ( ) 5.93
    2 Greek_Smyrna ( ) 5.99
    3 Cypriot ( ) 6.49
    4 Azov_Greek ( ) 7.15
    5 Syrian_Jew ( ) 8.03
    6 Greek_Islands ( ) 8.05
    7 Greek ( ) 8.41
    8 Greek_Macedonia ( ) 8.43
    9 Greek_Athens ( ) 9.11
    10 Italian_South ( ) 9.46
    11 Turk_Kayseri ( ) 9.78
    12 Turk_Istanbul ( ) 9.81
    13 Assyrian_Iraqi ( ) 10.19
    14 Lebanese_Muslim ( ) 10.42
    15 Greek_Phokaia ( ) 10.53
    16 Turk ( ) 10.54
    17 Romanian_Jew ( ) 10.56
    18 Turk_Balikesir ( ) 11.14
    19 Crimean_Tatar_Coast ( ) 11.3
    20 Central_Greek ( ) 11.54

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 73.1% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 26.9% Iranian_Jew ( ) @ 1.7
    2 51.9% Italian_South ( ) + 48.1% Assyrian_Iraqi ( ) @ 1.77
    3 73.9% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 26.1% Kurd_Jew ( ) @ 1.83
    4 55.7% Assyrian_Iraqi ( ) + 44.3% Sicilian_Center ( ) @ 1.84
    5 67.3% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 32.7% Georgian_Jew ( ) @ 1.85
    6 73.5% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 26.5% Iraqi_Mandean ( ) @ 1.86
    7 67% Greek_Islands ( ) + 33% Iraqi_Mandean ( ) @ 1.95
    8 73% Cretan ( ) + 27% Jew_Tat ( ) @ 1.95
    9 51.6% Assyrian_Arzni ( ) + 48.4% Italian_Abruzzo ( ) @ 1.99
    10 59.9% Greek_Islands ( ) + 40.1% Iraqi_Chaldean ( ) @ 2
    11 77.8% Cretan ( ) + 22.2% Assyrian_Arzni ( ) @ 2.04
    12 55.8% Italian_South ( ) + 44.2% Iraqi_Chaldean ( ) @ 2.04
    13 57.1% Sicilian_Siracusa ( ) + 42.9% Assyrian_Arzni ( ) @ 2.07
    14 52.9% Greek_Athens ( ) + 47.1% Assyrian_Iraqi ( ) @ 2.09
    15 78.9% Cretan ( ) + 21.1% Armenian_Yerevan ( ) @ 2.12
    16 51.5% Sicilian_Trapani ( ) + 48.5% Assyrian_Arzni ( ) @ 2.16
    17 67.5% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 32.5% Iraqi_Chaldean ( ) @ 2.16
    18 78.1% Cretan ( ) + 21.9% Armenian ( ) @ 2.2
    19 64.1% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 35.9% Assyrian_Iraqi ( ) @ 2.21
    20 55.3% Sicilian_Agrigento ( ) + 44.7% Armenian_Yerevan ( ) @ 2.22




    • Greek from Kayseri, Central Anatolia
     
    # Population Percent
    1 Caucasian 48.6
    2 European_Early_Farmers 16.45
    3 South_Central_Asian 15.63
    4 Near_East 11.88
    5 North_African 3.5
    6 European_Hunters_Gatherers 2.14
    7 East_Siberian 0.88
    8 Archaic_Human 0.28
    9 Tungus-Altaic 0.27
    10 Ancestral_Altaic 0.21
    11 Melano_Polynesian 0.17

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Cypriot ( ) 10.64
    2 Azov_Greek ( ) 10.67
    3 Crimean_Tatar_Coast ( ) 11.1
    4 Assyrian_Iraqi ( ) 11.15
    5 Armenian ( ) 11.28
    6 Jew_Tat ( ) 11.87
    7 Turk_Kayseri ( ) 11.88
    8 Lebanese_Druze ( ) 12.06
    9 Georgian_Jew ( ) 12.59
    10 Assyrian_Arzni ( ) 12.69
    11 Greek_Smyrna ( ) 12.97
    12 Armenian_Yerevan ( ) 13.01
    13 Iraqi_Jew ( ) 13.01
    14 Greek_Islands ( ) 13.26
    15 Turk ( ) 13.57
    16 Lebanese_Christian ( ) 14.03
    17 Turk_Istanbul ( ) 14.14
    18 Druze ( ) 14.32
    19 Christian_Arabs_Israel ( ) 14.47
    20 Iraqi_Chaldean ( ) 15.06

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 87.4% Armenian ( ) + 12.6% Sardinian ( ) @ 2.29
    2 85.8% Armenian_Yerevan ( ) + 14.2% Sardinian ( ) @ 3.08
    3 53.7% Armenian ( ) + 46.3% Greek_Smyrna ( ) @ 3.17
    4 73.1% Armenian ( ) + 26.9% Italian_Abruzzo ( ) @ 3.58
    5 63.9% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 36.1% Kakheti ( ) @ 3.66
    6 75.9% Armenian ( ) + 24.1% Italian_Tuscan ( ) @ 3.75
    7 77.4% Armenian ( ) + 22.6% Italian_Piedmont ( ) @ 3.8
    8 54.5% Armenian ( ) + 45.5% Greek_Islands ( ) @ 3.89
    9 50.1% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 49.9% Armenian_Yerevan ( ) @ 3.92
    10 80.5% Armenian ( ) + 19.5% Italian_Bergamo ( ) @ 3.93
    11 86.4% Assyrian_Arzni ( ) + 13.6% Sardinian ( ) @ 4.05
    12 67% Armenian ( ) + 33% Sicilian_East ( ) @ 4.09
    13 69.9% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 30.1% Georgian ( ) @ 4.12
    14 90.3% Armenian ( ) + 9.7% Basque_Spanish ( ) @ 4.2
    15 90.5% Armenian ( ) + 9.5% Basque_French ( ) @ 4.27
    16 69.4% Armenian ( ) + 30.6% Sicilian_Siracusa ( ) @ 4.28
    17 65.7% Armenian ( ) + 34.3% Sicilian_Center ( ) @ 4.31
    18 68.6% Armenian ( ) + 31.4% French_Jew ( ) @ 4.32
    19 83.5% Armenian ( ) + 16.5% Spanish_Baleares_IBS ( ) @ 4.32
    20 86.3% Armenian ( ) + 13.7% Spanish_Valencia_IBS ( ) @ 4.33




    • Greek from Eskişehir-Konya-Kayseri, Central Anatolia (1/4 Eskişehir, 1/4 Konya, 1/2 Kayseri)
     
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Caucasian 46.18
    2 European_Early_Farmers 15.02
    3 Near_East 14.13
    4 South_Central_Asian 10.57
    5 European_Hunters_Gatherers 6.37
    6 North_African 3.51
    7 Ancestral_Altaic 1.39
    8 East_Siberian 0.82
    9 Arctic 0.59
    10 Australoid 0.56
    11 Amerindian 0.3
    12 Paleo_Siberian 0.2
    13 African_Pygmy 0.19
    14 Subsaharian 0.15
    15 Melano_Polynesian 0.02

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Cypriot ( ) 5.69
    2 Azov_Greek ( ) 7.14
    3 Lebanese_Druze ( ) 7.98
    4 Crimean_Tatar_Coast ( ) 8.4
    5 Assyrian_Iraqi ( ) 9.39
    6 Greek_Islands ( ) 9.66
    7 Lebanese_Christian ( ) 9.68
    8 Greek_Smyrna ( ) 9.72
    9 Turk_Kayseri ( ) 10.08
    10 Iraqi_Jew ( ) 10.57
    11 Georgian_Jew ( ) 10.63
    12 Greek_Macedonia ( ) 10.71
    13 Cretan ( ) 10.8
    14 Turk_Istanbul ( ) 11.06
    15 Turk ( ) 11.09
    16 Lebanese_Muslim ( ) 11.31
    17 Greek ( ) 11.55
    18 Christian_Arabs_Israel ( ) 11.6
    19 Jew_Tat ( ) 11.73
    20 Druze ( ) 11.89

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 55% Greek_Islands ( ) + 45% Jew_Tat ( ) @ 1.76
    2 79% Cypriot ( ) + 21% Kabardin ( ) @ 1.83
    3 80.7% Cypriot ( ) + 19.3% Chechen ( ) @ 1.87
    4 78.4% Cypriot ( ) + 21.6% Kumyk ( ) @ 1.91
    5 76.3% Cypriot ( ) + 23.7% Cirkassian ( ) @ 2.18
    6 80.6% Cypriot ( ) + 19.4% Adygei ( ) @ 2.2
    7 52.3% Assyrian_Arzni ( ) + 47.7% Sicilian_Center ( ) @ 2.25
    8 56.3% Greek ( ) + 43.7% Assyrian_Arzni ( ) @ 2.29
    9 52.8% Greek_Phokaia ( ) + 47.2% Assyrian_Arzni ( ) @ 2.33
    10 60.7% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 39.3% Assyrian_Arzni ( ) @ 2.39
    11 81.8% Cypriot ( ) + 18.2% Azeri_Dagestan ( ) @ 2.41
    12 81.1% Cypriot ( ) + 18.9% Balkar ( ) @ 2.42
    13 83.5% Cypriot ( ) + 16.5% Lezgin ( ) @ 2.43
    14 59.9% Cretan ( ) + 40.1% Armenian_Yerevan ( ) @ 2.43
    15 84% Cypriot ( ) + 16% Avar ( ) @ 2.47
    16 58.1% Cretan ( ) + 41.9% Assyrian_Arzni ( ) @ 2.49
    17 81.8% Cypriot ( ) + 18.2% North_Ossetian ( ) @ 2.49
    18 82.7% Cypriot ( ) + 17.3% Ossetian ( ) @ 2.52
    19 50.5% Armenian_Yerevan ( ) + 49.5% Sicilian_Center ( ) @ 2.56
    20 55.3% Greek_Athens ( ) + 44.7% Assyrian_Arzni ( ) @ 2.56






    Table 8: Turk from Kardzhali/Bulgaria(1), Turk_Bulgaria_average(11) and Bulgarian_average(MDLP K23b spreadsheet)
    • Turk from Kardzhali has 11% East Eurasian admixture whereas Turk_Bulgaria_average has 6% East Eurasian. I've included them both to see the correlation between East Eurasian and other components.
    • East Eurasian increases
    • Ancestral_Altaic increases (on average)
    • South_Central_Asian increases
    • Near_East increases

    • European_Early_Farmers decreases
    • European_Hunter_Gatherers decreases
    • Caucasian remains more or less stable

    The situtation of Bulgaria is different than that of Asia Minor, the Turks who migrated to Bulgaria starting from the late 14th century (see the population transfers in the Ottoman Empire 1356-1635) had more East Eurasian, Ancestral_Altaic, South_Central_Asian and Near_East than local Bulgarians and had less European_Early_Farmers, European_Hunter_Gatherers. The Caucasian component remains stable, which means the Turks and local Bulgarians had similar levels of Caucasian component.

    The Turkish newcomers in Bulgaria probably had some local Anatolian admixture too considering the increase in Near East component.

    Component/Population Turk_Bulgaria(1) Turk_Bulgaria_average Bulgarian average
    Amerindian
    0.61
    0.25
    0.29
    Ancestral_Altaic
    0.97
    2.21
    1.35
    South_Central_Asian
    9.36
    6.68
    1.35
    Arctic
    1.35
    0.33
    0.25
    South_Indian
    1.64
    0.75
    0.61
    Australoid
    0.78
    0.3
    0.33
    Austronesian
    0.26
    0.59
    0.10
    Caucasian
    35.67
    34.31
    35.47
    Archaic_Human
    0.25
    0.1
    0.06
    East_African
    0.06
    0.04
    0.11
    East_Siberian
    4.28
    0.93
    0.33
    European_Early_Farmers
    9.31
    16.24
    19.31
    Khoisan
    0
    0.09
    0.05
    Melano_Polynesian
    1.06
    0.24
    0.23
    Archaic_African
    0
    0.06
    0.05
    Near_East
    5.85
    6.18
    4.26
    North_African
    0.78
    2.78
    2.50
    Paleo_Siberian
    0
    0.76
    0.23
    African_Pygmy
    0
    0.1
    0.11
    South_East_Asian
    2.14
    0.87
    0.16
    Subsaharian
    0
    0
    0.02
    Tungus-Altaic
    2.64
    2.48
    0.14
    European_Hunters_Gatherers
    22.99
    23.71
    29.89
    Last edited by Leper; 05-14-2017 at 07:18 PM.

  4. The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to Leper For This Useful Post:

     Afshar (05-14-2017),  alhan (05-15-2017),  Alkaevli (08-17-2017),  Arslan (05-17-2017),  basmaci (05-15-2017),  Caspian (05-15-2017),  Farroukh (07-29-2017),  icebreaker (05-15-2017),  parastais (05-14-2017),  Sangarius (05-15-2017),  Toguz (02-21-2021),  Whatever (02-04-2018)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    134
    Ethnicity
    Turkish

    Turkey
    To sum up: In all these cases we see the Turkic genetic input in these regions was not limited to only East Eurasian admixture, the Turkish newcomers were genetically Eurasian. The proportion of the Oghuz Turkic genetic input in Anatolia and the Balkans is still a matter of debate as we don't have any Seljuk-period Turkish DNA, but the impact that they have had upon the overall genetic structure of Anatolia allows us to conclude that the elite dominance theories that used to be popular in the past are completely discredited today. Although we can agree that assimilation of the native populations of Anatolia had occurred to a certain degree, we cannot estimate the exact number/proportion of it. Given the new genetic studies and individual data we have received so far, this assimilation was more like a partial process rather than a full-scale language shift.
    Last edited by Leper; 05-15-2017 at 12:43 PM.

  6. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Leper For This Useful Post:

     basmaci (05-15-2017),  Kqokanm (08-25-2017),  Toguz (02-21-2021),  Whatever (02-04-2018)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    30

    Finally! This is what it was mostly about. Early Turks were a mix of different people both genetically and physically. Just like the proto Iranic speakers. Central Asia was a melting pot of different haplogroups long before the proto Turkic culture.

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rafael For This Useful Post:

     Leper (05-15-2017),  Whatever (02-04-2018)

  9. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,048
    Sex
    Location
    Last of the Mohicans
    Ethnicity
    Gafasigirig
    Nationality
    Icecold
    Y-DNA (P)
    Q-Y16849
    mtDNA (M)
    H14a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R-Z2103
    mtDNA (P)
    HV-T16311C!

    Turkey Afsharid Dynasty
    Nice comparison!
    Can you also make assumptions with these data on the genetic contribution of the newcomers to the Anatolian genepool?
    Of all the countries, this is possibly the most beautiful. All that is beautiful and can be rarely seen in
    other countries can be seen everywhere here... Here live the people who wear the cleanest clothes and prepare the
    most flavorful dishes... Of all of God’s servants, the local people are the most compassionate and merciful...

    Ibn Battuta about Asia Minor 1333CE

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Afshar For This Useful Post:

     basmaci (05-16-2017)

  11. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    400
    Sex

    Greece
    Quote Originally Posted by rafael View Post
    Finally! This is what it was mostly about. Early Turks were a mix of different people both genetically and physically. Just like the proto Iranic speakers. Central Asia was a melting pot of different haplogroups long before the proto Turkic culture.
    That's more about Oghuz Turks. Concerning Early Turks, I don't know, but it depends on where their homeland was.
    Personally, I think early Turks were Iron Age Scythian like and more Western Eurasian than what people usually think.
    I also think though that Oghuz Turk migrations made more significant impact than what is thought.

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Kanenas For This Useful Post:

     Afshar (05-16-2017),  basmaci (11-27-2017),  rafael (05-16-2017)

  13. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    156
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Türk
    Nationality
    Türk
    Y-DNA (P)
    N1b-P43>VL67>VL85
    mtDNA (M)
    H1a3

    Turkey Azerbaijan Northern Cyprus Turkmenistan Kazakhstan Kyrgyzstan
    Thanks you for opening this thread.

    When the Greek historian Nicephorus Gregoras passed through Bithynia (Northwest Anatolia) en route to Niceaea in the middle of the 14th century, just one generation after the conquest of Niceaea by Turks, he observed that the population consisted of Turks, mixovarvaroi and Greeks. "Mixovarvaroi" (meaning mixed barbarians, children of Turkish fathers and Greek mothers) was a Byzantine term used to define the new generation of mixed parentage.

    I'm from Bithynia too, I think pre-Turkic inhabitants of Bithynia were similar to other West Anatolian Greeks who are somewhere in between Cypriots and Greek islanders genetically.


    I've replaced the Aegean Turks' results in your table with my results.
    Component/Population Basmaci Greek_Smyrna(k23b spreadsheet)
    Amerindian
    0.34
    0.06
    Ancestral_Altaic
    2.70
    0.96
    South_Central_Asian
    13.04
    9.04
    Arctic
    1.51
    0.03
    South_Indian
    1.00
    0.54
    Australoid
    1.06
    0.17
    Austronesian
    1.80
    0.21
    Caucasian
    34.74
    43.04
    Archaic_Human
    0
    0.04
    East_African
    1.40
    0.13
    East_Siberian
    1.88
    0.3
    European_Early_Farmers
    11.97
    22.02
    Khoisan
    0
    0.11
    Melano_Polynesian
    0
    0.21
    Archaic_African
    0.12
    0.06
    Near_East
    9.80
    12.16
    North_African
    0.24
    2.74
    Paleo_Siberian
    0
    0.22
    African_Pygmy
    0
    0.08
    South_East_Asian
    2.83
    0.12
    Subsaharian
    0
    0.05
    Tungus-Altaic
    4.38
    0.10
    European_Hunters_Gatherers
    11.19
    7.61

  14. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to basmaci For This Useful Post:

     Kanenas (05-16-2017),  Leper (05-16-2017),  Sangarius (05-16-2017),  Targum (05-26-2017),  Whatever (02-04-2018)

  15. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    134
    Ethnicity
    Turkish

    Turkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Afshar View Post
    Nice comparison!
    Can you also make assumptions with these data on the genetic contribution of the newcomers to the Anatolian genepool?
    Judging from the changes in the overall genetic structure of the peninsula, the contribution of the newcomers to the Anatolian gene pool must be around 25-35% (on average). But, as the word itself implies, this is just an assumption.

    I don't think there is any modern population that we can use as a reference for the medieval Oghuz Turks. Modern Oghuz-speakers in Central Asia (Turkmens) are not really a good reference either, even though they usually appear on our oracle results (Nogais also appear frequently), we know from the records of various travellers that Turkmens took Kazakh and Iranian female captives as their wives, this practice even gave rise to "half-castes" among Turkmen tribes of Central Asia.

    "On the Yamud and Goklan Tribes of Turkomania"
    BARON CLEMENT AUGUSTUS DE BODE, 1844


  16. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Leper For This Useful Post:

     Afshar (05-16-2017),  basmaci (05-17-2017),  Sangarius (05-16-2017),  Toguz (02-21-2021),  Whatever (02-04-2018)

  17. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5,689
    Sex
    Location
    Australia
    Ethnicity
    Italian Alpine
    Nationality
    Australian and Italian
    Y-DNA (P)
    T1a2b- SK1480
    mtDNA (M)
    H95a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-S8172
    mtDNA (P)
    T2b17

    Australia Italy Veneto Friuli Italy Trentino Alto Adige Italy Ladinia Austria Tirol
    Quote Originally Posted by basmaci View Post
    Thanks you for opening this thread.

    When the Greek historian Nicephorus Gregoras passed through Bithynia (Northwest Anatolia) en route to Niceaea in the middle of the 14th century, just one generation after the conquest of Niceaea by Turks, he observed that the population consisted of Turks, mixovarvaroi and Greeks. "Mixovarvaroi" (meaning mixed barbarians, children of Turkish fathers and Greek mothers) was a Byzantine term used to define the new generation of mixed parentage.

    I'm from Bithynia too, I think pre-Turkic inhabitants of Bithynia were similar to other West Anatolian Greeks who are somewhere in between Cypriots and Greek islanders genetically.


    I've replaced the Aegean Turks' results in your table with my results.
    Component/Population Basmaci Greek_Smyrna(k23b spreadsheet)
    Amerindian
    0.34
    0.06
    Ancestral_Altaic
    2.70
    0.96
    South_Central_Asian
    13.04
    9.04
    Arctic
    1.51
    0.03
    South_Indian
    1.00
    0.54
    Australoid
    1.06
    0.17
    Austronesian
    1.80
    0.21
    Caucasian
    34.74
    43.04
    Archaic_Human
    0
    0.04
    East_African
    1.40
    0.13
    East_Siberian
    1.88
    0.3
    European_Early_Farmers
    11.97
    22.02
    Khoisan
    0
    0.11
    Melano_Polynesian
    0
    0.21
    Archaic_African
    0.12
    0.06
    Near_East
    9.80
    12.16
    North_African
    0.24
    2.74
    Paleo_Siberian
    0
    0.22
    African_Pygmy
    0
    0.08
    South_East_Asian
    2.83
    0.12
    Subsaharian
    0
    0.05
    Tungus-Altaic
    4.38
    0.10
    European_Hunters_Gatherers
    11.19
    7.61
    Iron-age bithnyia was always thracian mixed with phygian until conquered by the various "persian empires"


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483 )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-Y33791 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

  18. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    156
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Türk
    Nationality
    Türk
    Y-DNA (P)
    N1b-P43>VL67>VL85
    mtDNA (M)
    H1a3

    Turkey Azerbaijan Northern Cyprus Turkmenistan Kazakhstan Kyrgyzstan
    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Iron-age bithnyia was always thracian mixed with phygian until conquered by the various "persian empires"
    long long time ago before Roman and Byzantium era. and those "conquerors" hadn't settled here

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to basmaci For This Useful Post:

     Sangarius (05-16-2017)

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 04-07-2020, 07:24 PM
  2. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 02-03-2020, 05:13 PM
  3. Replies: 19
    Last Post: 08-30-2019, 11:13 PM
  4. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04-10-2018, 11:10 PM
  5. Replies: 17
    Last Post: 01-26-2018, 10:44 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •