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Thread: Early Medieval Czech DNA (years 600-900 AD)

  1. #51
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    "The usual claim from academia is that the 1st-millennium Slavic migration constituted a massive population replacement in the West Slavic countries, and that most of the R1a and I2a in those countries results from such replacement. According to Figure 2 of this research study, 75 Czech samples were found to be 41% R1a and 14% I2a. If one actually believes that half of Czechs' Y chromosomes originate in Ukraine/Belarus, such massive population replacement certainly ought to show up glaringly in the autosomal DNA--but it doesn't." (L.G. Mayka)

    Could you refer me to the studies which prove that up to 1/2 of the Czech I2a-Din or (not just I2a per se) existed in Czech territory prior to the 6th c. CE? And if there is no proof of this is the "glaring" autosomal evidence you mention not an indication of precisely the reverse?

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    Could you refer me to the studies which prove that up to 1/2 of the Czech I2a-Din or (not just I2a per se) existed in Czech territory prior to the 6th c. CE? And if there is no proof of this is the "glaring" autosomal evidence you mention not an indication of precisely the reverse?
    You entirely miss the point of that year-old post, which relied heavily on this Eurogenes blog entry. This is what the blog said at that time:
    ---
    So the fact that these two Medieval Slavs from East Central Europe passed so convincingly for eastern Bell Beakers is a hint of very strong genetic continuity in the region since the Bronze Age. Indeed, they're very similar to present-day Czechs, western Poles (from Poznan), and eastern Germans, except perhaps with lower excess Western Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) ancestry and higher Yamnaya-related ancestry.
    ---

    The point of the year-old forum post that you cite is that:
    1) Academics typically claim that 50-88% of modern West Slavic DNA (all DNA, not just Y-DNA) came from Ukraine or Belarus during the Migration Period.
    2) Therefore, early-medieval West Slavic DNA samples should cluster with Ukraine and Belarus.
    3) According to Eurogenes, they do not, but rather cluster with Eastern Bell Beakers and with modern West Slavs and eastern Germans.

    As this forum thread progressed (a year ago!), independent analysis suggested that the early-medieval West Slavic DNA samples were not uniform, but diverse--e.g., one clustering with southern Poles and eastern Germans, another clustering with northeastern Poles and Lithuanians. This suggests that the truth may be more nuanced than the old equally dogmatic Total Population Replacement and Population Continuity hypotheses. Paul M. Barford's The Early Slavs (p.46, last paragraph) explains what we don't know about the Slavic expansion. Perhaps more early-medieval DNA from the West Slavic countries will eventually clarify?
    Last edited by lgmayka; 04-18-2018 at 10:56 PM.

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  4. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    You entirely miss the point of that year-old post, which relied heavily on this Eurogenes blog entry. This is what the blog said at that time:
    ---
    So the fact that these two Medieval Slavs from East Central Europe passed so convincingly for eastern Bell Beakers is a hint of very strong genetic continuity in the region since the Bronze Age. Indeed, they're very similar to present-day Czechs, western Poles (from Poznan), and eastern Germans, except perhaps with lower excess Western Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) ancestry and higher Yamnaya-related ancestry.
    ---

    The point of the year-old forum post that you cite is that:
    1) Academics typically claim that 50-88% of modern West Slavic DNA (all DNA, not just Y-DNA) came from Ukraine or Belarus during the Migration Period.
    2) Therefore, early-medieval West Slavic DNA samples should cluster with Ukraine and Belarus.
    3) According to Eurogenes, they do not, but rather cluster with Eastern Bell Beakers and with modern West Slavs and eastern Germans.

    As this forum thread progressed (a year ago!), independent analysis suggested that the early-medieval West Slavic DNA samples were not uniform, but diverse--e.g., one clustering with southern Poles and eastern Germans, another clustering with northeastern Poles and Lithuanians. This suggests that the truth may be more nuanced than the old equally dogmatic Total Population Replacement and Population Continuity hypotheses. Paul M. Barford's The Early Slavs (p.46, last paragraph) explains what we don't know about the Slavic expansion.
    Sorry about the misunderstanding. I cited a citation from "Dibran" which had no date for what it cited. It just seemed to me (and still does) that as cited it does not make its point. I accept your overall explanation (which I tend to broadly share). The new mix which resulted from the Slavic outpush south and west is indeed more complicated than a simple "population replacement". But until proof is offered that the typically Slavic Y-DNA (from both R1a and I2a) were already in situ, the "Bell Beaker" analogy does (quaintly) suggest that the paternal lines were not "local" and came from elsewhere (just as R1b basically did earlier)

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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    But until proof is offered that the typically Slavic Y-DNA (from both R1a and I2a) were already in situ, the "Bell Beaker" analogy does (quaintly) suggest that the paternal lines were not "local" and came from elsewhere (just as R1b basically did earlier)
    Right now, as far as I know, not a single R-M458 or I-Y3120 from before 600 AD has been published. R-L260 might well have come from Czech lands, and I-Y3120 from southeastern Poland, for all we know so far.

    But frankly, I object to your phrasing, which implies that any hypothesis other than yours must provide "proof." You have no proof either. We're all waiting for ancient and early-medieval DNA evidence to resolve the issue.
    Last edited by lgmayka; 04-19-2018 at 10:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    Right now, as far as I know, not a single R-M458 or I-Y3120 from before 600 AD has been published. R-L260 might well have come from Czech lands, and I-Y3120 from southeastern Poland, for all we know so far.

    But frankly, I object to your phrasing, which implies that any hypothesis other than yours must provide "proof." You have no proof either. We're all waiting for ancient and early-medieval DNA evidence to resolve the issue.
    Agreed. Without data, any hypothesis is as good as any.

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  9. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    Right now, as far as I know, not a single R-M458 or I-Y3120 from before 600 AD has been published. R-L260 might well have come from Czech lands, and I-Y3120 from southeastern Poland, for all we know so far.

    But frankly, I object to your phrasing, which implies that any hypothesis other than yours must provide "proof." You have no proof either. We're all waiting for ancient and early-medieval DNA evidence to resolve the issue.
    Good luck to the Slavic version of the OIT

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