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Thread: Early Medieval Czech DNA (years 600-900 AD)

  1. #21
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    East Slavs are not showing up in nMonte. Why?

    PL_Sudovia are samples from Suwałki, very Lithuanian/Belarusian-shifted.

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    From the Comments section:

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/0...m-bohemia.html

    Szkx said...
    Here is a PCA based on Eurogenes K15 results with merged northeastern and northwestern components with my 28 Czech samples from GEDMatch plus some Slovaks and Rusyns. Not very scientific, but informative enough. Note RISE577, Czech sample from Unetice culture and RISE569, Czech Slav.
    http://jpeg.cz/images/2017/05/19/NPeg5.png
    RISE577 = Unetice culture Czech Rep.
    RISE569 = Early Slavic Czech Rep.

    http://i.imgur.com/xasWt29.png


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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    I still chuckle at this phrase in the paper:
    ---
    a ‘‘Slavic’’ source (represented here by a cluster of Lithuanians...)
    ---
    Yeah just like the absurd way DNA.LAND names one of their categories "Northern Slavic" (what 23 and FTDNA call Eastern European) and it doesn't even peak in Slavic people but in Baltic people instead and they refuse to change the name and don't seem to understand the question even.

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    569 sure shows a lot of North Sea! Doesn't this seem almost more like some modern Czechs with lots of German mixed in?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wombatofthenorth View Post
    569 sure shows a lot of North Sea! Doesn't this seem almost more like some modern Czechs with lots of German mixed in?
    RISE569 actually has more of "North Sea" in Eurogenes K36 calculator than any of modern populations. Also ancient RISE174 (Sweden 427-611 AD) and RISE276 (Denmark 794-547 BC) score less of "North Sea" than this 569.

    No modern Czechs or Germans score that much of "North Sea" in K36. Just a few Scottish, Norwegian and Dutch people. But 1 out of 100 maybe.

    Which explains why "Scotland" and "Holland" show up in nMonte.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-23-2017 at 08:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    I still chuckle at this phrase in the paper:
    ---
    a ‘‘Slavic’’ source (represented here by a cluster of Lithuanians...)
    ---
    But nMonte prefers Poles from Suwałki over Lithuanians for RISE568. And Lithuanians are in the spreadhseet - yet nMonte did not choose them, but chose PL_Sudovia instead! So maybe Slavic admixture in the Balkans can be modelled as "a Slavic source represented here by a cluster of Poles from Suwałki"?

    See:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post237024

    Suwałki, Mazovia and PL_North show up. PL_North are Non-Kashubians from northern areas (including Northern Mazovia & areas more to the west).

    Davidski is part of our Poland_North sample...
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-23-2017 at 08:35 AM.

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    Is RISE568 really a poor quality sample? I think it is decent:

    Token File data:
    Chr Token SNP Count
    1 2979
    2 3063
    3 2390
    4 2195
    5 2029
    6 2416
    7 1843
    8 1894
    9 1602
    10 1988
    11 1968
    12 1809
    13 1410
    14 1158
    15 1095
    16 1162
    17 1009
    18 1231
    19 627
    20 999
    21 565
    22 495
    X 1057

    Processed in batch 6896
    Number of SNPs utilized by GEDmatch template = 36833
    Warning: Kit will not be included in batch processing. It does not have enough SNPs.
    Number of regular SNPs = 36984

    It doesn't have enough SNPs for "One-to-many", but 37 K is not so bad. And it doesn't show any weird admixtures like Sub-Saharan etc. so it seems OK. I can add no-calls and upload it again, so it will be available for One-to-many.

    ==================

    Where did ancestors of RISE568 live 15 K and 4,5 K years ago?:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post237332

    15,000 years ago:

    Total Europe - 100%:
    HG North & East - 98%
    HG South - 2%

    4,500 years ago:

    Total Europe - 100%:
    IE Expansion - 98%
    Euro Farmer - 2%
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-23-2017 at 10:09 AM.

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    The results look very strange. Are the genomes not of very bad quality? It is hard to believe that early Slavs in Bohemia were a mix of a Norwegian/Scottish-like and Lithuanian-like populations. I would rather expect pre-Slavs to be german or austrian-like. Modern day Czechs should not be so different from them and should rather be a bit more "western " genetically because of massive German immigration later. But maybe the very northern shifted sample represents a very early Slav who not mixed with locals yet
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 05-23-2017 at 10:30 AM.

  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    It is hard to believe that early Slavs in Bohemia were a mix of a Norwegian/Scottish-like and Lithuanian-like populations. I would rather expect pre-Slavs to be german or austrian-like.
    Apart from Scots, Orcadians are a good fit as well. How about checking what some actual Pre-Slavic samples get? We have Bronze Age genomes from Czech Rep., East Germany and Poland.

    This is Trzciniec culture sample from Poland, Cuiavia (PL_N17, 1953-1880 BC):

    Eurogenes K36:

    East_Central_Euro 21.72
    North_Sea 19.15
    North_Atlantic 16.49
    Fennoscandian 10.75
    Eastern_Euro 9.29
    French 6.79
    North_Caucasian 5.88
    Central_Euro 4.35
    East_Balkan 3.31
    Iberian 2.28

    K36 nMonte for PL_N17 (Gustorzyn in Cuiavia, 1953-1880 BC):

    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
    Pl_north German_East PL_Wielkopolska Pl_Kashubians
    13.45552 14.85170 15.31672 15.47171
    Ukrainian_West Slovak PL_Upper_Silesia Czechs_Moravians
    17.02510 17.86914 18.00294 18.19015

    Population percent

    Orcadian 45.15
    Lithuanian 39.10

    Denmark 6.95
    North_Dagestan 5.65
    Pl_north 2.05
    PL_Sudovia 0.55
    Scotland 0.30
    Ireland 0.10
    Latvian 0.05
    PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia 0.05
    Northern_Ireland 0.05

    I will check what Bronze Age Unetice samples from Czech Republic get.

    ============================================

    Too bad that so far we don't have any Iron Age samples to see what populations which lived there immediately before the Migration Period. There are only Bronze Age samples.

    ============================================

    This is Unetice culture sample from Poland, Silesia (RISE150 1885-1693 BC):

    North_Atlantic 18.25
    North_Sea 17.99
    Iberian 13.65
    Eastern_Euro 9.68
    Fennoscandian 9.51
    French 8.38
    Central_Euro 6.73
    East_Central_Euro 5.70
    East_Balkan 4.91
    North_Caucasian 4.30
    Basque 0.70
    Italian 0.21

    Different admixtures than Polish Trzciniec sample from Cuiavia.

    Even though both persons lived around the same time period.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-23-2017 at 12:40 PM.

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  14. #30
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    K36 nMonte for RISE150 (Unetice culture, Silesia, Poland):

    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
    Orcadian Ireland British_mixed Northern_Ireland
    8.413541 8.531275 9.782349 10.495286
    Scotland Norway England German_North
    11.335971 11.604269 11.726998 12.572453

    Population percent

    Ireland 55.15
    Orcadian 24.65

    Russian_Kostroma 5.50
    Norway 4.75
    Erzya 3.55
    Russian_Meshtchyora 2.10
    FR_Bretagne 2.05
    Northern_Ireland 1.15
    Chechen 1.10

    So... ??? The same pattern again. Only this time without "Lithuanian".

    Very Celtic results - and Unetice was probably a Proto-Celtic culture.

    "Lithuanian" was present in Trzciniec culture, but not in Unetice culture.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-23-2017 at 12:58 PM.

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