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Thread: When did Nubia become Nubian?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirix View Post
    No real proof those are associated with the Meroitic ruling population and culture. Egyptologists apply generalizing stereotypical assertions when they see depictions of diverse group of nilo-saharan speakers that were probably ancestral to the south sudanese dinkas, Mandari, Nuer and the omo valley groups and label them with a modern term ''Nubian'' as some umbrella.

    Also Kushite to the Egyptians was not a ethnic term, it was more or less a geographical term. Northern Sudan as we know it was seperated into two different ancestral populations of cushitic and nilo-saharan speakers. Cushitic speakers were represented by Beja aka Blemmys/Medjay and Nilo-Saharans represented by Noba.

    Compare Meroitics depcitions of themselves on their own temple walls and tombs and sculptures to the so called Nubians these egyptologist speak of.

    Indeed, Meroitic depictions of themselves do not entirely match the current appearances of northern Nuba, however, these depictions do not as well match those of modern Amazigh tribes. Given the information we currently have on DNA sequences of Meroitic populations, a strong argument is made for an intermixed population of Nilo-Saharan and Afroasiatic influences. With a dominant Nilo-Saharan component over a Cushitic, particularly in the south. Additionally, regarding the Noba, that is contested. It is unknown whether the term refers to the Nuba peoples or the Nobatae, a people of unknown origins.

    Attached below are temple depictions of the Meroitics by the Meroitics. An argument can be made for similarities. As well as Assyrian depictions.


    https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/Y_EA719

    https://www.crystalinks.com/medjayreliefwomen.jpg

    https://wildfiregames.com/forum/uplo...73b437122e.jpg

    https://wildfiregames.com/forum/uplo...df32652b3c.jpg

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noba

    https://wildfiregames.com/forum/uplo...c36f389109.jpg

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirix View Post
    My theory is that the earliest Meroitics spoke a Afro-Asiatic language, i base this on the fact that numerous studies on the A-Group, C-Group, Kerma and Meroitic civilizations show that they have close ties with that of ancient Egypt and also with the Cushitic-associated Savanna Pastoral Neolithic.

    Also the very fact that modern Nubian population are ancestrally more related to Afro-asiatic speaking populations genetically especially with their Cushitic neighbors more so than nilo-saharan speakers. Which may point the fact that the original population didn't speak nilo-saharan.

    Dobon et al. (2015) found that modern Nubians are genetically closer to their Cushitic and Ethio-Semitic (Afro-Asiatic) neighbors (such as the Beja, Sudanese Arabs and Ethiopians) than to other Nilo-Saharan speakers.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4446898/

    Which in that case i think Nubian as a language was probably introduced by the Noba people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noba who invaded Meroe after its weakning and hence not only introduced the language to it but also gave it their name Nubian and founded the kingdom of Nobatea thereby it became Nubian from then on.

    Prior to this Noba was a traditional enemy of Meroe and they even had a sculptures of the King of Noba bounded


    A Meroitic statuette of a bound Noba ruler (50-1 BCE). The figurine has an engraving on it in the Meroitic language, which reads: qo qore Nob-o-l-o (“this one is the king of the Noba”).
    https://www.donsmaps.com/egypt4.html
    The difficulty with conflating the modern Nubian populations with ancient populations is that it fails to take into account the radical population shifts that occured following the fall of Meroe. The increase in both the Cushitic and the West Eurasian component can be explained by Arab migration into the Sudan, as well as domination by the mixed-cushitic axxumites.

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  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by RonWa View Post
    The difficulty with conflating the modern Nubian populations with ancient populations is that it fails to take into account the radical population shifts that occured following the fall of Meroe. The increase in both the Cushitic and the West Eurasian component can be explained by Arab migration into the Sudan, as well as domination by the mixed-cushitic axxumites.
    If that is the case then there should be a demonstrateable discontinuity for which there isn't. Aside from the noticeable mixture with Arabs there hasn't be any radical population change or replacement.

    Scientists in 2009 extracted Ancient DNA from bone samples stored at the Sudan National Museum. The specimens dated from the Neolithic, Meroitic, Post-Meroitic and Christian periods, with the Neolithic specimens belonging to the Kadruka culture: They observed that the Neolithic Kadruka sample generally belonged to different paternal lineages than the later Meroitic, Post-Meroitic and Christian period samples

    Haplogroups A-M13 was found at high frequencies among Neolithic samples. Haplogroup F-M89 and YAP appeared to be more frequent among Meroitic, Post-Meroitic and Christian periods. Haplogroup B-M60 was not observed in the sample analyze.
    Since haplogroup A is today the most common paternal lineage among Nilotic groups in the Nile Valley, the researchers propose that the Neolithic Kadruka population was likely ancestral to present-day Nilotes residing in the area. By contrast, the higher haplogroup E and F frequencies found among the Meroitic, Post-Meroitic (X-Group) and Christian era populations prompted the scientists to assert that these other early Sudanese groups instead had closer ties with communities ancestral to the modern Afro-Asiatic-speaking (Beja, Sudanese Arabs) and Nubian-speaking populations:

    In Y-chromosome terms this mean in simplest terms introgression of the YAP insertion (haplogroups E and D), and Eurasian Haplogroups which are defined by F-M89 against a background of haplogroup A-M13. The data analysis of the extant Y-chromosomes suggests that the bulk of genetic diversity appears to be a consequence of recent migrations and demographic events mainly from Asia and Europe, evident in a higher migration rate for speakers of Afro-Asiatic as compared to the Nilo-Saharan family of languages, and a generally higher effective population size for the former.
    This affirms the continuity between the Meroitic populations and the Modern Nubian population. Although the A group specimens of lower nubia weren't examined existing skeletal analysis of these individuals suggests that they too were ancestral to the modern Afro-Asiatic-speaking and Nubian groups. This is because the A-Group specimens share close osteological ties with the latter populations, as well as with ancient and contemporary Egyptian samples.

    Then there is also 2015 study where they sucessfully extract endogenous DNA from specimens from the early Christian Period when the Alodia/Alwah, Nobatia and Makuria kingdoms ruled. They found out the specimens ancestry was West-Euroasian. Which shows that the Coptic/Ethio-Somali ancestral component that defines modern Nubians is most likely the same West Eurasian-affiliated ancestral component that defines the KulR17 specimen from Kulubnarti.

    The likelyhood to me seems to be that the Meroitics were either originally an ancestral AfroAsiatic population closely related to the Egyptian population in Upper Egypt that adopted a Nilo-Saharan tongue or the Meroitics spoke an AfroAsiatic language and adopted Nilo-Saharan at a later date presumeably towards decline and fall of Meroe. Either hypothesis w seems plausible with consideration for the aforementioned but i am leaning more towards the latter
    Last edited by Mirix; 10-20-2020 at 09:06 PM.

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  6. #44
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    Is this a troll comment? Because the 1st image you can't even pick out anything from it, the second one are actually Egyptian soldiers in Hashepsuts temple coming back from an expedition to punt. 4th one isn't even Meroitic relief, it's an NeoAssyrian one.

    The 3rd and 5th are the only valid temple depictions of Meroitics by the Meroitics and they don't dispute anything i have said. They bare no resemblance to the so called Nubians these egyptologists try to attribute them to that appear on Egyptian reliefs. If you look at them from an ethnographic point of view.

    I was never alluding to them matching with modern Amazigh or Berbers tribes in resemblance. In my opinion i believe they probably resemble the modern Nubians today or more conservatively looked more similar to Horn of African populations and their neighboring Beja.

    Meroitics depictions of themselves:

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/bf/c5/5f/b...18482ff771.jpg

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e7/1f...7a22e77cd2.jpg

    https://www.farhorizons.com/wp-conte...horizontal.jpg

    https://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/sou...hata_titre.jpg

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWVLIWaU0AA3CiR.jpg
    Last edited by Mirix; 10-21-2020 at 01:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RonWa View Post
    The difficulty with conflating the modern Nubian populations with ancient populations is that it fails to take into account the radical population shifts that occured following the fall of Meroe. The increase in both the Cushitic and the West Eurasian component can be explained by Arab migration into the Sudan, as well as domination by the mixed-cushitic axxumites.
    I agree that the Arab migrations had a massive genetic impact in Sudan but you mention Aksumites and forget the Cushitic Beja.The Beja are still genetically similar to Horners their ethno-linguistic kinsmen.I don't think one should completely discount Beja-like populations having a deep presence in Lower Nubia even after the Nilo-Saharan invasions of Lower Nubia.

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    I just wish something from pre-medieval Nubia would come out already-- anything. A-Group, C-Group, X-Group. I want to finally be able to associate genotypes with these cultures.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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    Speaking of Nubia aren't the oldest hieroglyphics from Upper Egypt/Lower Nubia? Does this mean our alphabet is actually Nubian? Or do we know if those hieroglyphics were in Egyptiann?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Speaking of Nubia aren't the oldest hieroglyphics from Upper Egypt/Lower Nubia? Does this mean our alphabet is actually Nubian? Or do we know if those hieroglyphics were in Egyptiann?
    Upper Egypt is not Lower Nubia, they don't really overlap much.

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