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Thread: When did Nubia become Nubian?

  1. #21
    Beja R1b is R1b-V88 which is not Cushitic in origin. It's likely from a Chadic or Egyptian source (Egyptian is more likely). There is literally 0 R1b-V88 in the very diverged Cushitic and Cushitic-descended peoples of the Horn, with a likely higher occurrence of the also negligible R1b-M269 and R1a-Z93.

    And let's not conflate low-level but seemingly geographically widespread ydna to = any significant auDNA impact emanating from those R1b-V88 carrying folks (whoever they were). Instead, R1b-V88 is much more localized than that suggests as what emanated from North Africa into West Africa and the Sahel is the migration of ydna-wise R1b-V88 rich populations like the Chadic migrations, and in NE Africa (outside Egypt) the low-level of R1b-V88 in groups like the Beja is clearly via admixture from Egyptian populations who carry lineages similar to Chadic folks (who they likely share a common origin with). Same goes for the Sudani Arabs, although offshoots like the Shuwa-Baggara Arabs may have gotten their R1b-V88 from nearby Chadic or Teda groups although a Nile Egyptian origin in common with other Sudani Arabs is more likely (which they all in turn likely got from assimilated Nubian males like those in the upcoming Christian Nubia paper)

    However, the ancestral Chadic group(s) clearly admixed into a Nilo-Saharan-like population probably anywhere from the direct southwest of the Kharga Oasis and the Ennedi-Tibesti mountains flank to Lake Chad to the Blue-White Nile confluence in Khartoum-Omdurman. This area likely contained populations ancestral to Nilo-Saharan peoples who at some point Chadics mixed into and may have been heavily diluted by the time different Chadic groups started admixing with West African populations. This is really most similar to low-Steppe populations with very high levels of ydna R1b-M269 and R1a-M417, except they had somewhere around 7-8,000 years to do so. Their homeland was clearly in NE Africa where all other AA groups broke off from some point in the last 14-7,000 years ago.

    I mean, all the things about R1b-V88 you can about of any ydna present in Africa from at least the Neolithic and remains in appreciable frequencies. But I do not believe a single autosomal signature in any significant or even detectable amount is responsible for R1b-V88 in Yorubas, Hausas, Bejas, and Maghrebis, and I doubt the R1b-V88 into-Africa population was auDNA-wise anything like Chadics and late Kingdom Egyptians, who are responsible for the spread of this lineage to other groups around them in a minimum of 5,000+ yr or so time-frame.

    The impact of those R1b-V88 folks on an autosomal level in Africa and amongst Afroasiatic groups (and Africa in general) is unknown unless we find an archaeological correlate from Eurasia into N Africa with direcly ancestral R1b-V88 or simply a bunch of R1b-V88 guys that are auDNA-wise unlike what we would expect of NE Africa in the Mesolithic and Neolithic, i.e if they have clear WHG admix for example and found in the western desert or elsewhere in N Africa.

    This is very similar to the debate over T1a-L208's entrance into Africa. Most Omotics lack T1a-L208 seemingly. But Cushitic, Semitic, Egyptian, and I'm guessing Chadic speakers all have it.

    As such, both R1b-V88 and T1a-L208 (likely also for the latter) are later post-Paleolithic (and pre-Old Kingdom) Eurasian arrivals in NE Africa. Question is, did their into-Africa bearers leave an autosomal impact in any group in the region? and what process allowed for these groups to lurch onto several disparate Afroasiatic populations knowing these were likely very patriarchal and clan-based peoples - I always guessed it likely had to do with animal husbandry and the pastoralist tradition which brought these otherwise non-AA folks into the Afroasiatic oikumene and their lineages at times very successful (as amongst Chadics, or it may simply be a chance founder effect)

    Also - Copts have heavy Semitic Bronze age ancestry, not only proven by auDNA, but their parental markers - which tbh, is typical of at least the late Kingdom Egyptians. But if someone can compare their Iran Chl ancestry and infer a minimum amount of Semitic Bronze Age associated Anatolian and Levant Neolithic-like ancestry (which was present even prior to the Old Kingdom), we can have an idea what earlier Egyptians looked like. Although I'm assuming even the Delta and Lower Egyptians themselves derive a significant amount of ancestry from pre-Egyptian groups.

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  3. #22
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    From the Sudan Studies Post-Graduates Conference back in May.
    Paleogenomic Investigation of Ancient Nubian Populations
    Abagail M. Breidenstein(University of Michigan)

    The Nile River Valley has a rich history of human occupation from prehistory through the modern era and recent studies have uncovered vast and complex ethnic, linguistic, and geographic diversity for this region. More specifically, the historic and ancientpopulations of Nubia were mobile with broad trade contacts and dynamic histories of conquest and colonialism, which likely contributed to their genetic ancestry. Focusing on the region known as Upper Nubia, this paper presents an effort to begin reconstructing Nubian demographic history via ancient and modern human DNA data. Utilizing paleogenomic data, or ancient DNA, from 88 ancient and 157 modern individuals spanning from the Meroitic period to the modern era, genetic clues are employed to reconstruct population dynamics and understand the mobility and interactions of these groups across the landscape. This methodology has the ability trace human migrations in “real-time” and to reconstruct past population history with enhanced resolution.
    Source: PDF of abstracts from Conference (no other talks related to aDNA).

    A tweet from several weeks ago regarding the author above:

    #evmedStaff Abagail Breidenstein is an associate researcher in the IEM palaeogenetics group, she explores the demographics of ancient Nubia. Her newest project takes place at the royal necropolis of Nuri, Sudan, based on ancient DNA Find out more here: (link:
    Source: Tweet

    Seems like she's also working on sampling royal burials, maybe even pharaohs from the 25th dynasty.

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