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Thread: When did Nubia become Nubian?

  1. #21
    Beja R1b is R1b-V88 which is not Cushitic in origin. It's likely from a Chadic or Egyptian source (Egyptian is more likely). There is literally 0 R1b-V88 in the very diverged Cushitic and Cushitic-descended peoples of the Horn, with a likely higher occurrence of the also negligible R1b-M269 and R1a-Z93.

    And let's not conflate low-level but seemingly geographically widespread ydna to = any significant auDNA impact emanating from those R1b-V88 carrying folks (whoever they were). Instead, R1b-V88 is much more localized than that suggests as what emanated from North Africa into West Africa and the Sahel is the migration of ydna-wise R1b-V88 rich populations like the Chadic migrations, and in NE Africa (outside Egypt) the low-level of R1b-V88 in groups like the Beja is clearly via admixture from Egyptian populations who carry lineages similar to Chadic folks (who they likely share a common origin with). Same goes for the Sudani Arabs, although offshoots like the Shuwa-Baggara Arabs may have gotten their R1b-V88 from nearby Chadic or Teda groups although a Nile Egyptian origin in common with other Sudani Arabs is more likely (which they all in turn likely got from assimilated Nubian males like those in the upcoming Christian Nubia paper)

    However, the ancestral Chadic group(s) clearly admixed into a Nilo-Saharan-like population probably anywhere from the direct southwest of the Kharga Oasis and the Ennedi-Tibesti mountains flank to Lake Chad to the Blue-White Nile confluence in Khartoum-Omdurman. This area likely contained populations ancestral to Nilo-Saharan peoples who at some point Chadics mixed into and may have been heavily diluted by the time different Chadic groups started admixing with West African populations. This is really most similar to low-Steppe populations with very high levels of ydna R1b-M269 and R1a-M417, except they had somewhere around 7-8,000 years to do so. Their homeland was clearly in NE Africa where all other AA groups broke off from some point in the last 14-7,000 years ago.

    I mean, all the things about R1b-V88 you can about of any ydna present in Africa from at least the Neolithic and remains in appreciable frequencies. But I do not believe a single autosomal signature in any significant or even detectable amount is responsible for R1b-V88 in Yorubas, Hausas, Bejas, and Maghrebis, and I doubt the R1b-V88 into-Africa population was auDNA-wise anything like Chadics and late Kingdom Egyptians, who are responsible for the spread of this lineage to other groups around them in a minimum of 5,000+ yr or so time-frame.

    The impact of those R1b-V88 folks on an autosomal level in Africa and amongst Afroasiatic groups (and Africa in general) is unknown unless we find an archaeological correlate from Eurasia into N Africa with direcly ancestral R1b-V88 or simply a bunch of R1b-V88 guys that are auDNA-wise unlike what we would expect of NE Africa in the Mesolithic and Neolithic, i.e if they have clear WHG admix for example and found in the western desert or elsewhere in N Africa.

    This is very similar to the debate over T1a-L208's entrance into Africa. Most Omotics lack T1a-L208 seemingly. But Cushitic, Semitic, Egyptian, and I'm guessing Chadic speakers all have it.

    As such, both R1b-V88 and T1a-L208 (likely also for the latter) are later post-Paleolithic (and pre-Old Kingdom) Eurasian arrivals in NE Africa. Question is, did their into-Africa bearers leave an autosomal impact in any group in the region? and what process allowed for these groups to lurch onto several disparate Afroasiatic populations knowing these were likely very patriarchal and clan-based peoples - I always guessed it likely had to do with animal husbandry and the pastoralist tradition which brought these otherwise non-AA folks into the Afroasiatic oikumene and their lineages at times very successful (as amongst Chadics, or it may simply be a chance founder effect)

    Also - Copts have heavy Semitic Bronze age ancestry, not only proven by auDNA, but their parental markers - which tbh, is typical of at least the late Kingdom Egyptians. But if someone can compare their Iran Chl ancestry and infer a minimum amount of Semitic Bronze Age associated Anatolian and Levant Neolithic-like ancestry (which was present even prior to the Old Kingdom), we can have an idea what earlier Egyptians looked like. Although I'm assuming even the Delta and Lower Egyptians themselves derive a significant amount of ancestry from pre-Egyptian groups.

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  3. #22
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    From the Sudan Studies Post-Graduates Conference back in May.
    Paleogenomic Investigation of Ancient Nubian Populations
    Abagail M. Breidenstein(University of Michigan)

    The Nile River Valley has a rich history of human occupation from prehistory through the modern era and recent studies have uncovered vast and complex ethnic, linguistic, and geographic diversity for this region. More specifically, the historic and ancientpopulations of Nubia were mobile with broad trade contacts and dynamic histories of conquest and colonialism, which likely contributed to their genetic ancestry. Focusing on the region known as Upper Nubia, this paper presents an effort to begin reconstructing Nubian demographic history via ancient and modern human DNA data. Utilizing paleogenomic data, or ancient DNA, from 88 ancient and 157 modern individuals spanning from the Meroitic period to the modern era, genetic clues are employed to reconstruct population dynamics and understand the mobility and interactions of these groups across the landscape. This methodology has the ability trace human migrations in “real-time” and to reconstruct past population history with enhanced resolution.
    Source: PDF of abstracts from Conference (no other talks related to aDNA).


    A tweet from several weeks ago regarding the author above:

    #evmedStaff Abagail Breidenstein is an associate researcher in the IEM palaeogenetics group, she explores the demographics of ancient Nubia. Her newest project takes place at the royal necropolis of Nuri, Sudan, based on ancient DNA Find out more here: (link: http://nuripyramids.org) nuripyramids.org
    Source: Tweet

    Seems like she's also working on sampling royal burials, maybe even pharaohs from the 25th dynasty.

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  5. #23
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    Some also believe/have proposed that the Kerma language(s) was likely Nilo-Saharan (It/they would not have been "Nubian" specifically, which is proposed to have reached that part of "Nubia" later, but likely a linguistic relative of it, also belonging the Eastern Sudanic branch of Nilo-Saharan" and possibly also ancestral to Meroitic). Claude Rilly proposed this. And another study (Julien Cooper 2017), with a similar hypothesis, finds Nilo-Saharan traits in the place names (toponyms) and personal names recorded from the Kerma region (from places like "Kush" and "Irem", which are names for Kerma and its region) and further south (in the relevant periods), suggesting that the language(s) of the Kerma region was/were probably Nilo-Saharan, but proposes that other cultures (of the time) in the regions north (and some East) of Kerma (northern Nubia—including the regions then known as "Wawat" and "Medjay") likely spoke Afro-Asiatic languages. Cooper suggests that broader "Nubia" likely was inhabited by more than one ethnolinguistic "block"; some Nilo-Saharan, and others Afro-Asiatic (probably varieties of Cushitic in the latter case).

    "Toponymic Strata in Ancient Nubian placenames in the ird and Second Millenium BCE: a view from Egyptian Records" (by Julien Cooper)
    https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:7d...ournal+article

    From the above:

    "Given the similarity between the archeological material at Kerma and Sai in Kerma moyen and Kerma classique, it is plausible that the polity of 5Aa.t, rst mentioned in the Middle Kingdom, was also dominated by speakers of a Meroitic-like language. This places most of the Nile Valley south of Sai firmly in the sphere of North-Eastern Sudanic languages, with a very uncertain southern boundary. Lower Nubia still belonged to a different linguistic group, with the boundary probably being within the Batn el-Hajar.
    The African corpus of the Execration Texts deal, as far as we can ascertain, with the region of the Middle Nile and the Eastern and Western Deserts of Egypt and Sudan. The majority of the place names in this corpus are given to represent centers along the river, although a good deal of place names designates polities in the Eastern Desert such as AwSq and WbAt-spt. The personal and place names in the corpus have been subjected to a linguistic study by Rilly, who has shown the roughly similar phonetic inventories of Sai (5Aa.t) and Kush (KS).16 The toponyms and personal names according to Kush and Sai lack any of the extensive pharyngeal consonants so common in Afroasiatic languages, and it is therefore likely that we are dealing with North-Eastern Sudanic languages, quite likely a pre-Meroitic tongue, although any number of North-Eastern Sudanic languages is possible." (page 202)

    "Like the earlier Execration Texts, the Kush-list of place names in the New Kingdom lists presented a somewhat homogenous unit of place names with typical North-Eastern Sudanic phonemic repertoire (e.g., many stop consonants, lack of pharyngeals). The Irem-list also provides a similar inventory to Kush, placing this firmly in an Eastern Sudanic zone. These Irem/Kush-lists are distinctive from the Wawat, Medjay, Punt, and Wetenet-lists, which provide sounds typical to Afroasiatic languages." (page 204)

    I have also sometimes wondered whether some (perhaps other if not these) languages spoken in the ancient "Nubian" region might also perhaps have had a mixture of Nilo-Saharan and Afro-Asiatic features (resulting from contact between the groups) (This, I imagine, could potentially make some such languages somewhat difficult to classify).
    Last edited by Jm8; 10-02-2019 at 01:53 PM.

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  7. #24
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    Minor edit:

    "Kush" is (as mentioned) one ancient term that referred to the Kerma polity and its region.

    "Middle Kingdom texts witness to the arrival of the ubiquitous toponym “Kush,” a term which came to designate the Nubian polity centred at Kerma."
    (Cooper 2017, page 201)

    Another minor (clarifying) correction, to the below:

    "...but proposes that other cultures (of the time) in the regions north (and some East) of Kerma (northern Nubia—including the regions then known as "Wawat" and "Medjay") likely spoke Afro-Asiatic languages..."

    It is also suggested by Cooper that Nilo-Saharan extended a little north of the Kerma region too. He suggests that the regions along the Nile south of Sai Island (an island a little north of Kerma) also likely spoke Nilo-Saharan languages (i.e., they were spoken along the Nile from Sai southward, including in Kerma and regions south of Kerma, as mentioned in the quote in the post above: "This places most of the Nile Valley south of Sai firmly in the sphere of North-Eastern Sudanic languages..."), but with the regions north of Sai likely speaking Afro-Asiatic languages.
    Last edited by Jm8; 10-05-2019 at 07:41 AM.

  8. #25
    I bet this predominant Paternal Eurasian group is result of Haplogroup J by Coptic christians intermarrying into nubians creating another hybrid group,
    The nubian christians are different from the cushities for they spoke nilotic language..and were more "african" according to osteologie analyses.
    the history of nubia is result of hybridization , and the Sex-Biased differences actually indicate a different origin but sharing similar
    Hybrid ancestry due to mixing , Arabs when they invaded sudan they also created another hybrid groups by marrying both nilotic female slaves and intermixing with the previous christian nubians.
    and the kulr17 from serak 2015 who was closer to middle easterners assures us here that about the identity of this intrusive sex-biased paternal eurasian group.

    kulr17.png
    Last edited by Nebro; 02-14-2020 at 11:13 PM.

  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackflash16 View Post
    Didn't want to start a new thread as no paper/pre-print has been released yet.

    Note: Kulubnarti is in Lower Nubia around 160 km south of the modern Egyptian border (close to Wadi Haifa on the map in Awale's post).


    The abstract from the upcoming SAA 2019 conference:


    Previous abstract from 2016 relating to mtDNA results from this site:



    Information that can be gathered from both abstracts:

    "Community R" likely refers to the mainland burials:
    - mtDNA: Mostly "Eurasian" non-L (~64% from the 2016 abstract) "over-represented"
    - Y-DNA: no mention of Y-DNA.

    "Community S" likely refers to the island burials:
    - mtDNA:Mostly "African" L (~70%)
    - Y-DNA: Eurasian "over-represented".

    Genome-wide the two groups are similar in ancestry, and since the island burials weren't stated as having an disproportionate amount of L lineages with respect to their genome-wide results, I think we can assume they'll cluster closer to the southern end of "Northeast African" variation.
    This abstract was released some time ago, wonder if they are close to releasing the study.

  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by sum1 View Post
    This abstract was released some time ago, wonder if they are close to releasing the study.
    Not every abstract ends out as a study. I've seen an abstract in 2018 about 2 medieval moroccans with an "atypical genetic profile" according to the author, and when I contacted the genetician he told me that they stopped studying them, because the participants were busy, and that someone may reconsider testing them later. So..

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  12. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amhas View Post
    Not every abstract ends out as a study. I've seen an abstract in 2018 about 2 medieval moroccans with an "atypical genetic profile" according to the author, and when I contacted the genetician he told me that they stopped studying them, because the participants were busy, and that someone may reconsider testing them later. So..
    Who is the geneticist again? Do you mind sharing the abstract and the names?

    I remember distinctively this abstract too, IIRC the two samples were best modeled as South European + Khoisan?
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Who is the geneticist again? Do you mind sharing the abstract and the names?

    I remember distinctively this abstract too, IIRC the two samples were best modeled as South European + Khoisan?

    Yes absolutely.

    Abstract:

    The trans-Saharan gold and salt trade as well as the trans-Saharan slave trade played an important role in population movements connecting sub-Saharan and Mediterranean economies during the Middle Ages. The slave trade alone is said to have transported more than 9 million slave soldiers and domestic servants along the trans-Saharan route. In this study, we present the genomic analysis of two human individuals from a cave site in the area of present-day Morocco which were directly dated to the Medieval period. The samples were processed in a designated ancient DNA lab and the genomic data obtained shows standard patterns of authentic ancient DNA with low levels of contamination. Both individuals – which represent the first ancient genome sequence data from North Africa – do not exhibit particular genetic affinities to modern North Africans or any other present-day population in published genotype data sets despite relatively extensive data has been produced from many areas of Africa. In fact, the most parsimonious way to model them genetically is as two-source admixture between Mediterranean Europeans and Southern Africans. The lack of archaeological context of the two individuals opens up various alternatives to explain their genomic pattern. Both individuals could represent a Medieval African population without population continuity to modern-day populations. Alternatively, both Mediterranean Europe and Southern Africa are known source regions in the Arab slave trade, thus they could potentially represent the offspring of slaves of different origin. The Arab slave trade extended over a longer period and may have involved more slaves than its transatlantic counterpart and our data might provide the first genetic insight into this historical process and the people who suffered in it. Our results highlight how archaeogenetic research can shed lights into historical events and long-distance population movements while opening new questions for the interpretation of the data.

    http://smbe-2016.p.asnevents.com.au/...abstract/35210

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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amhas View Post
    Not every abstract ends out as a study. I've seen an abstract in 2018 about 2 medieval moroccans with an "atypical genetic profile" according to the author, and when I contacted the genetician he told me that they stopped studying them, because the participants were busy, and that someone may reconsider testing them later. So..
    I have to wonder what would be higher priority (non-covid) given the preliminary analysis and the disconnect from all modern samples.
    Last edited by beyoku; 05-08-2020 at 03:13 PM.

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