Page 7 of 11 FirstFirst ... 56789 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 109

Thread: Statistics in the Bell Beaker paper: Table S2

  1. #61
    Banned
    Posts
    4,169
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    N/A
    Nationality
    N/A
    Y-DNA
    I2a1-L621- PH 908
    mtDNA
    H 47

    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    I've pointed to the same fact previously.

    But, it doesn't discard the Yamna(-like) burials found in Bulgaria from around 3100BC to 2500BC, does it?
    Of course not. In fact they are Yamnaya pure and simple.
    So their genetic affinities (high steppe component) is to nobody's great surprise.
    And what is surprising is theyre I2a2; which IMO represents an expansion of Baden-Cermavoda eastward.

    But the question was always going to be - how much steppe ancestry diffused to other parts of the Balkans: such as Ezero or Helladic cultures, and by what mechanism. But I don't want to clog up this thread because it's not the main purpose of the OP's question, and the raw data isnt available
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 05-23-2017 at 06:30 AM.

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Gravetto-Danubian For This Useful Post:

     ffoucart (05-23-2017),  Observer (05-23-2017)

  3. #62
    Moderator
    Posts
    5,612
    Sex
    Location
    Normandy
    Ethnicity
    northwesterner
    Y-DNA
    U152>L2>Z367
    mtDNA
    H5a1

    Normandie Netherlands Friesland Finland Orkney
    The dogma of the iberian craddle of the Bell beaker culture is obviously alive on our forum, as everywhere. But the fact is that it's nothing but a dogma, as pointed by the great archeologist Christian Jeunesse in his text "The dogma of the Iberian origin of the Bell Beaker: attempting its deconstruction".
    http://www.jna.uni-kiel.de/index.php...e/view/112/113
    Imo this dogma has been weakened by the recent publications. Hopefully in a close future we can read, on this forum and everywhere, about iberian and atlantic areas as terminal, and not initial, Bell Beaker fields.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to anglesqueville For This Useful Post:

     Helgenes50 (05-23-2017),  razyn (05-23-2017),  rms2 (05-23-2017)

  5. #63
    Banned
    Posts
    4,169
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    N/A
    Nationality
    N/A
    Y-DNA
    I2a1-L621- PH 908
    mtDNA
    H 47

    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    The dogma of the iberian craddle of the Bell beaker culture is obviously alive on our forum, as everywhere. But the fact is that it's nothing but a dogma, as pointed by the great archeologist Christian Jeunesse in his text "The dogma of the Iberian origin of the Bell Beaker: attempting its deconstruction".
    http://www.jna.uni-kiel.de/index.php...e/view/112/113
    Imo this dogma has been weakened by the recent publications. Hopefully in a close future we can read, on this forum and everywhere, about iberian and atlantic areas as terminal, and not initial, Bell Beaker fields.
    One philosophical thinkpiece is hardly revealing on the matter, even if you pledge his 'greatness". It seems difficult for some people to understand that the BB Horizon was just that - a Horizon (at least at the beginning) with distinct groups converging; whose main shared elements were the common developments of the Secondary Products Revolution, for which of course Iberia was the most distant region.
    However, this doesn't negate the fact that some aspects of the BB package first came together in Iberia, unless you've got some actual data which illustrates this "dogma".?
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 05-23-2017 at 07:24 AM.

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Gravetto-Danubian For This Useful Post:

     anglesqueville (05-23-2017),  Jean M (05-26-2017),  Kristiina (05-25-2017)

  7. #64
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    11,255
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36981
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Lets see what I wrote

    "the putative Iberian colonists came as an 'early beaker' phase, and then mixed with 'natives', to form the Rhodo-Provencal and Pyrenean BB regional groups centred in the south. "

    - a very careful and contextually specific statement.

    To which you replied "You surely are not arguing for an early Iberian BB diaspora that was as significant as the kurgan Bell Beaker phenomenon"
    You were critical of the Olalde et al paper for evidently not doing justice to what you apparently regard as significant demic diffusion of early Bell Beaker out of Iberia.

    The paper says there was apparently no significant migration of Iberian Bell Beaker people from Iberia to Central Europe because there was little or no Iberian genetic contribution to Central European Bell Beaker. It was Central European Bell Beaker that spread into the rest of Europe, especially, for the focus of this paper, NW Europe, and worked a genomic transformation.

    You don't seem to disagree with that, so I am not really sure what the point of your argument (with attendant snide remarks) is. I guess your point is that Iberian BB moved into southern France. Okay, but that does not seem to alter what Olalde et al had to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    So are you being intentionally difficult, or is this just a bit complex ? If so, Im sorry but that is the point of this thread.
    Was that really necessary? It was intentionally snide and condescending.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    But just for fun:

    - GAC das not from the steppe.
    No one ever claimed Gimbutas was infallible. She was evidently wrong about Remedello, too.

    But she was right a lot more than she was wrong. She was right about Bell Beaker, at least in saying that the kurgan type of Bell Beaker could not have arisen out of any western European culture.

    With regard to GAC, Gimbutas did not claim it was entirely from the steppe but that it was a hybrid with some steppe elements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    - the earliest L51 is from German CWC.
    You've got me there. I had not heard of an L51 result in German Corded Ware. Can you point me to that result?

    BTW, was that supposed to make me feel bad or embarrassed? It did not work, but maybe I am just too simple to be easily embarrassed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    - no steppe invasion of Anatolia
    - no steppe invasion of the Balkans.
    There you are getting ahead of yourself and jumping to conclusions. Neither of those things has been proven.
    Last edited by rms2; 05-23-2017 at 11:30 AM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Helgenes50 (05-23-2017),  Kopfjäger (05-23-2017)

  9. #65
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,715
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA
    DF27, FGC15733
    mtDNA
    T2f3

    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Hopefully in a close future we can read, on this forum and everywhere, about iberian and atlantic areas as terminal, and not initial, Bell Beaker fields.
    rms2 and I, at least, have cited this Jeunesse paper several times during the past couple of years. But it keeps getting washed away by all the "reflux" stuff; the "fission-fusion" stuff; Celtic from the West; antiquity of Basque and related languages in the areas of their recent distribution; various Ice Age refugia; and other competing, dogmatic positions.

    I don't know a thing about Jeunesse himself, but I found his argument pretty persuasive. That may be because it reinforces my own dogmatic position. But the aDNA patterns do make more sense, to me, if we don't start with the simplest tableware and work everything back eastward from that.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to razyn For This Useful Post:

     rms2 (05-23-2017)

  11. #66
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    11,255
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36981
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    rms2 and I, at least, have cited this Jeunesse paper several times during the past couple of years. But it keeps getting washed away by all the "reflux" stuff; the "fission-fusion" stuff; Celtic from the West; antiquity of Basque and related languages in the areas of their recent distribution; various Ice Age refugia; and other competing, dogmatic positions.

    I don't know a thing about Jeunesse himself, but I found his argument pretty persuasive. That may be because it reinforces my own dogmatic position. But the aDNA patterns do make more sense, to me, if we don't start with the simplest tableware and work everything back eastward from that.
    Jeunesse's paper is really excellent. When I first read it, I found it refreshing. For me, the Bell Beaker problem was always how such a culture could have originated in Iberia. It just did not make sense. The very earliest Iberian Bell Beaker stuff, with its collective Neolithic burials and its gracile Mediterranean skeletons, is so un-Bell Beaker-like. Were it not for the Beaker pots and potsherds, who would ever guess those were Bell Beaker burials?

    Jean M's solution was the rapid transit of steppe migrants along the Mediterranean coast directly to Iberia, but we were still left with the Neolithic-farmer-looking Iberian BB burials and skeletons.

    Olalde et al, it seems to me, have mostly solved the problem. Bell Beaker looks like a steppe-derived culture because that is what it was. It did not really originate in Iberia and spread from there a la that map from Brandt et al a couple of years ago.
    Last edited by rms2; 05-23-2017 at 12:10 PM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     anglesqueville (05-23-2017)

  13. #67
    Banned
    Posts
    4,169
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    N/A
    Nationality
    N/A
    Y-DNA
    I2a1-L621- PH 908
    mtDNA
    H 47

    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    rms2 and I, at least, have cited this Jeunesse paper several times during the past couple of years. But it keeps getting washed away by all the "reflux" stuff; the "fission-fusion" stuff; Celtic from the West; antiquity of Basque and related languages in the areas of their recent distribution; various Ice Age refugia; and other competing, dogmatic positions.

    I don't know a thing about Jeunesse himself, but I found his argument pretty persuasive. That may be because it reinforces my own dogmatic position. But the aDNA patterns do make more sense, to me, if we don't start with the simplest tableware and work everything back eastward from that.
    No model rests on the assumption of a spread of 'simple tableware' spreading eastward. I have no idea where you guys got that idea from.


    The evidence is strongly persuasive of the Harrison & Heyd model. If you haven't been able to read and follow the crux of their model, some aspects have been outlined here in previous posts.
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 05-23-2017 at 12:56 PM.

  14. #68
    Moderator
    Posts
    5,612
    Sex
    Location
    Normandy
    Ethnicity
    northwesterner
    Y-DNA
    U152>L2>Z367
    mtDNA
    H5a1

    Normandie Netherlands Friesland Finland Orkney
    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    rms2 and I, at least, have cited this Jeunesse paper several times during the past couple of years. But it keeps getting washed away by all the "reflux" stuff; the "fission-fusion" stuff; Celtic from the West; antiquity of Basque and related languages in the areas of their recent distribution; various Ice Age refugia; and other competing, dogmatic positions.

    I don't know a thing about Jeunesse himself, but I found his argument pretty persuasive. That may be because it reinforces my own dogmatic position. But the aDNA patterns do make more sense, to me, if we don't start with the simplest tableware and work everything back eastward from that.
    I was aware that this paper has been many times cited, but I thought it was useful to put here a short reminder Jeunesse is a very active archeologist, in particular in the Bell Beakers' area. https://unistra.academia.edu/ChristianJeunesse . It is rather ... cheeky to call the paper " The dogma of ..." a "philosophical thinkpiece". At most "epistemological" ( and btw a bit ironical). Anyway a little epistemology would not hurt in anthropology ( without speaking of linguistics... ). I don't know whether Jeunesse has enough time to read the forums and blogs. If he has I'm sure that he indeed may laugh, seeing all those amateur defenders of Bosch-Gimpera, Del Castillo, etc. Hopefully Gravetto-Danubian will not feel offended by a long philosophical quotation ( one more)

    Based on a series of examples, let us try now, to imagine the content
    of these fictive studies and to see how they might have imposed
    a completely different view of the history of third millennium Europ:
    • The chronology of the cemeteries of the Eastern group: the idea
    of a central European origin of the Bell Beaker would have led
    experts to examine the typological variability of the pottery assemblages
    discovered in the graves in a different way. If the Bell
    Beaker originates from the Danubian area, the possibility would
    be carefully examined that at least some of the assemblages
    without decorated beakers, those most obviously from the Post
    -Vučedol complex, could be placed at the start of the sequence
    within the internal periodization of the cemeteries.

    • The origin of the decorated bell-shaped beaker: it would not
    have been advanced, as it still is today, that the bell-shaped
    beaker has no regional precursor. Through its shape, its decoration
    with horizontal bands and the frequent use of impressed
    corded decoration a probable evolution from the corded beaker
    would have been suggested
    , as put forward by the supporters
    of the Dutch model (who have not been criticised with regard to
    this point of their construction).
    • The notion of Begleitkeramik : the notion of Begleitkeramik, starting
    point and corner stone of a large number of current studies
    would obviously never have arisen as it would not have made
    any sense for a phenomenon the epicentre of which was located
    in the Danubian regions,
    more precisely those regions from
    which the so-called «accompanying pottery» stems.
    • The hypothesis of Rückstrom: for obvious reasons, which it is not
    necessary to detail here, another pillar of current research on the
    Bell Beaker, the thesis of the Rückstrom would never have been
    created.

    The maritime beaker would be considered as being a «peripheral»
    production, characteristic of the western margins. It is possible
    without greater risk to bet that its emergence would have been
    related to a twofold process of impoverishment and homogenization
    of pottery decoration linked to the distance from the area
    of emergence of the Bell Beaker, a well-known mechanism for
    other historical contexts
    . It obviously would not be considered
    as being the earliest type of decorated beaker and one would
    do without the stereotype of a necessary evolution from the
    simplest to the most baroque shape
    . Its success in Portugal and
    more generally on the Atlantic shores would be connected with
    a phenomenon of regionalization, quite a natural process for a
    culture occupying such a large territory over such a long period
    of time. The same applies to the other «western» traits the formation
    of which would be analysed as resulting from geographical
    distance and from interactions with local substrata
    I'm willing to bet that all that, here written in the conditional mode, will one day be in the indicative mode.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to anglesqueville For This Useful Post:

     razyn (05-23-2017),  rms2 (05-23-2017)

  16. #69
    Banned
    Posts
    4,169
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    N/A
    Nationality
    N/A
    Y-DNA
    I2a1-L621- PH 908
    mtDNA
    H 47

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    You were critical of the Olalde et al paper for evidently not doing justice to what you apparently regard as significant demic diffusion of early Bell Beaker out of Iberia.

    The paper says there was apparently no significant migration of Iberian Bell Beaker people from Iberia to Central Europe because there was little or no Iberian genetic contribution to Central European Bell Beaker. It was Central European Bell Beaker that spread into the rest of Europe, especially, for the focus of this paper, NW Europe, and worked a genomic transformation.

    You don't seem to disagree with that, so I am not really sure what the point of your argument (with attendant snide remarks) is. I guess your point is that Iberian BB moved into southern France. Okay, but that does not seem to alter what Olalde et al had to say.



    Was that really necessary? It was intentionally snide and condescending.



    No one ever claimed Gimbutas was infallible. She was evidently wrong about Remedello, too.

    But she was right a lot more than she was wrong. She was right about Bell Beaker, at least in saying that the kurgan type of Bell Beaker could not have arisen out of any western European culture.

    With regard to GAC, Gimbutas did not claim it was entirely from the steppe but that it was a hybrid with some steppe elements.



    You've got me there. I had not heard of an L51 result in German Corded Ware. Can you point me to that result?

    BTW, was that supposed to make me feel bad or embarrassed? It did not work, but maybe I am just too simple to be easily embarrassed.



    There you are getting ahead of yourself and jumping to conclusions. Neither of those things has been proven.
    There's little use in going on about who said what said like 2 schoolkids. The OP asked a specific aspect to be examined, which some people here are trying to oblige.
    For some reason, you have interpreted that as meaning "Bell Beaker didn't come from the steppe". I know the study results are, they're nothing we didn't already know or expect.

    I am going to break it down very simply: BB had 2 distinct poles: a south-west and an eastern, with the border along the Rhine. This is nothing new, but confirmed with aDNA in this study. Yes, British & Irish Beaker came from the steppe variety- again nobody is saying anything different to that.
    But there was the S-W variety not only in Iberia, but also southern France, Brittany, Switzerland, and as far as Germany, at least in the early phase of the "Bell Beaker period'. But these have not been tested, apart from one female. This is what my 'critique' was referring to.
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 05-23-2017 at 12:19 PM.

  17. #70
    Registered Users
    Posts
    320
    Sex
    Location
    우리집
    Ethnicity
    西男子
    Nationality
    美國人
    Y-DNA
    R1b-Z255
    mtDNA
    HV4a1

    United Kingdom Italy Germany Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    You've got me there. I had not heard of an L51 result in German Corded Ware. Can you point me to that result?
    I'd like to see that result, too.
    Maternal grandfather (MDKA: Johannes Nicholas Schaefer, Germany) - yDNA: R1b-U106+, mtDNA: T2
    Maternal grandmother (MDKA: Angelina Centrella, Avellino, Campania, Italia) - mtDNA: HV4a1


    Administrator for Hidden Content , Hidden Content , and Hidden Content

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to Kopfjäger For This Useful Post:

     rms2 (05-23-2017)

Page 7 of 11 FirstFirst ... 56789 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Bell Beaker and V
    By JonikW in forum V
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 05-08-2019, 09:08 AM
  2. Bell Beaker Pilgrimage
    By R.Rocca in forum R1b General
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-27-2016, 05:02 AM
  3. A Bell Beaker thriller
    By Bernard in forum French
    Replies: 61
    Last Post: 10-08-2015, 02:01 AM
  4. R-L21+ = Bell Beaker?
    By evon in forum R1b-L21
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 04-08-2015, 08:47 AM
  5. Bell Beaker Isotopes
    By dartraighe in forum General
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 06-01-2013, 11:43 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •