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Thread: Derbyshire, Bell Beakers and Corded ware and the people

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    Derbyshire, Bell Beakers and Corded ware and the people

    I understand totally that the new Olalde paper on the Bell Beakers in Britain and Europe chose samples from the far North and the south, it is good scientific practice to scope the problem, rather than cover everywhere, but I was disappointed that no samples were chosen from Derbyshire (75% of my mum's DNA).

    I have been reading "The Transition from the Late Neolithic to Early Bronze Age in the Peak District of Derbyshire and Staffordshire" by Margaret Fowler (1955) and it has some great insights particularly with respect to what we are all now learning about the DNA.
    This small booklet can be found https://books.google.co.uk/books/abo...AJ&redir_esc=y

    She indicates that the beaker people came from the east since there is no further evidence in any other direction and there were considerable design similarities to those in Yorkshire (Pickering and Riggs group) P8 (73) “It seems indicated that an influence crossing the North Sea, however it was actually carried, introduced the use of Beaker related directly or indirectly to those representing Corded Ware in Jutland and that an extension of this influence reached as far inland as the Peak District.”
    P27 “This type of pin (the pin from the Arbor Low, a megalithic burial) therefore seems to be well set into the period of overlap between Beaker and Food vessel and of confusion between multiple and single burial cremation and inhumation”

    P41(96) “ the fusion of cultures at the transition of the late Neolithic and Early bronze Age produced several curious hybrids (but they were only meaning pottery here, but go on to discuss humans) some of which have been mentioned…..From a late infiltration of chambered tombs into the area could have evolved influences clearly megalithic in essence, which were to combine with newly arriving Beaker rites.”

    P43 “The cranium from Mouse Low is mesaticephalic while that from Bee Low is dolichocephalic these instances tending to substantiate that there was physical and cultural fusion between the native elements and the incoming single grave within a relatively short time”

    The cranial types are given in table VII p70 for each type of site and are summarised as

    Beakers and simple rock graves
    Brachycephalic 6
    Mesasticephalic 3
    Dolichocephalic 1

    Food vessels
    Brachycephalic 1
    Mesasticephalic 2
    Dolichocephalic 1

    Debased Megalithic
    Brachycephalic 7
    Mesasticephalic 3
    Dolichocephalic 3

    Both Fowler and a later author interpret the positioning of the discovered goods as the recent Beaker arrivals were initially socially inferior and only gradually came to dominate the culture.

    This influx from Eastern Europe goes a long way to explain why FTDNA has my mum's origins as 30% East European and illustrates the time slice of FTDNA ancestral origins algorithm. I have posted on the Olalde thread (post 384) that the residual on Giving using 3 poplins on MDLP
    50% Bellbeaker
    25% Bell Beaker Germany
    25% Swedish LN
    With a residual of only 1.03, which is a very low residual, i.e a very good match

    and 50% of her ancestral areas are within 20 miles from the Bell Beaker sites.

    This post complements http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...rs%2C+Gimbutas and what Tomenable wrote in post 2240 quoting from Coon page 224 of this long thread.
    Last edited by Judith; 05-22-2017 at 08:35 PM. Reason: Giving page no
    Image “Westray wifie” replica of Neolithic figurine Hidden Content
    Out of 64 pre 1800 births 45% Cheshire, 1% Irish (or Scottish), 25% south Derbyshire, 13% Burton on Trent area (where 4 counties within 10 miles), 7% Shropshire, 1% Staffs, 8% Lancs. So far all British Isles despite what some testing companies say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post

    P41(96) “ the fusion of cultures at the transition of the late Neolithic and Early bronze Age produced several curious hybrids (but they were only meaning pottery here, but go on to discuss humans) some of which have been mentioned…..From a late infiltration of chambered tombs into the area could have evolved influences clearly megalithic in essence, which were to combine with newly arriving Beaker rites.”
    I am quite curious about that.

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    Image “Westray wifie” replica of Neolithic figurine Hidden Content
    Out of 64 pre 1800 births 45% Cheshire, 1% Irish (or Scottish), 25% south Derbyshire, 13% Burton on Trent area (where 4 counties within 10 miles), 7% Shropshire, 1% Staffs, 8% Lancs. So far all British Isles despite what some testing companies say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    I have been reading "The Transition from the Late Neolithic to Early Bronze Age in the Peak District of Derbyshire and Staffordshire" by Margaret Fowler (1955)
    I realise that it can be more satisfying in a way to read an old publication on Bell Beaker. In the 1950s there was none of the anti-migration sentiment which became popular in British archaeology from the 1970s and was established orthodoxy by the 1990s. Margaret Fowler actually talks about skull shapes. She recognises that the Bell Beaker culture arrived with real, live Bell Beaker people, and was not just a new fashion in an established population. We now know from the new paper on ancient DNA that she was right, along with all other archaeologists of her generation, who took it for granted that the Bell Beaker people were new arrivals.

    But we now have lots more data about Bell Beaker than we had in her day, including radiocarbon dates. Thinking has moved on. No-one today imagines that Bell Beaker entered Britain from Jutland, because we know that Jutland was one of the last places that Bell Beaker arrived. Here is a map from Marie Besse 2015, with dates.

    Besse2015.jpg Click to enlarge.
    Last edited by Jean M; 05-23-2017 at 10:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    I understand totally that the new Olalde paper on the Bell Beakers in Britain and Europe chose samples from the far North and the south, it is good scientific practice to scope the problem, rather than cover everywhere, but I was disappointed that no samples were chosen from Derbyshire (75% of my mum's DNA).
    • Obtaining samples is a matter of taking what is available. It means finding co-operative archaeologists for a start. Many samples for this paper came from Wessex Archaeology, whose Senior Osteoarchaeologist, Jackie McKinley, is keen on using modern scientific methods to detect migration. A good selection for Scotland came from Alison Sheridan, who heads the Early Prehistory section of the National Museums Scotland. She has always been forward-thinking and less mired in the orthodoxy than many British prehistorians.
    • To the best of my knowledge, Derbyshire did not have a special type of Bell Beaker different from all other English counties. I think that you can assume that the general conclusions of Olalde et al 2017 will apply there as everywhere.
    • A lot has happened in England since the arrival of Bell Beaker. From Bell Beaker to the end of Roman times, the population was probably much the same genetically, with maybe a fraction of the exotic from the days of being part of the Roman Empire. Then the Angles and Saxons arrived. They brought a new language and some new Y-DNA haplogroups. Your mum's DNA is unlikely to retain much from the Copper-Bronze Age of Central England.

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    Jean, do you have any thoughts on the hybrid styles of corded ware and BB and if they could not derive from Jutland then the common source to both is Central Germany?
    Plus any thoughts/ updates on Fowlers view that the Derbyshire BB came through Yorkshire?
    Image “Westray wifie” replica of Neolithic figurine Hidden Content
    Out of 64 pre 1800 births 45% Cheshire, 1% Irish (or Scottish), 25% south Derbyshire, 13% Burton on Trent area (where 4 counties within 10 miles), 7% Shropshire, 1% Staffs, 8% Lancs. So far all British Isles despite what some testing companies say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    Jean, do you have any thoughts on the hybrid styles of corded ware and BB and if they could not derive from Jutland then the common source to both is Central Germany?
    Since I have no idea what she regarded as a hybrid style, I cannot tell you. I would guess that it was All Over Corded (AOC), an early type of BB pot with cord impressions all over, like the classic early CW pots. Reams and reams have been written on the origins of Bell Beaker, and quite a lot of it saw Bell Beaker as descended from Corded Ware. There were claims that its origin lay in the Netherlands, because there was a sequence of pottery there that was interpreted as CW > BB.

    I have spent years fighting that idea. In my view their similarities stemmed from a common ancestor. But you could have a chat with the county archaeologist: http://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/environ...n/archaeology/

    Plus any thoughts/ updates on Fowlers view that the Derbyshire BB came through Yorkshire?
    Beaker_culture_diffusion.jpg

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    This is a photo of the drawn plate from the pamphlet. I do not know whether a modern scholar would consider it a hybrid2017-05-25 19.04.19-4.jpg of corded style with BB.
    Certainly I am not qualified to comment.
    Image “Westray wifie” replica of Neolithic figurine Hidden Content
    Out of 64 pre 1800 births 45% Cheshire, 1% Irish (or Scottish), 25% south Derbyshire, 13% Burton on Trent area (where 4 counties within 10 miles), 7% Shropshire, 1% Staffs, 8% Lancs. So far all British Isles despite what some testing companies say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    This is a photo of the drawn plate from the pamphlet. I do not know whether a modern scholar would consider it a hybrid.
    Apparently not. The pot in question is in Museums Sheffield's collection. You can see the description there: http://collections.museums-sheffield...9-ae4a17cb5370
    Last edited by Jean M; 05-25-2017 at 09:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    I am quite curious about that.
    The only answer that I can give is from the pamphlet, and time has moved on in the understanding of the dating we have enormous advantages of carbon dating and isotope analysis.
    One useful input is that one comment that the incoming arrivals (i.e. The BBs)2017-05-25 19.04.19-3.jpg2017-05-25 19.04.19-2.jpg had the inferior social position is still followed by modern scholars.(Ref to follow)
    Image “Westray wifie” replica of Neolithic figurine Hidden Content
    Out of 64 pre 1800 births 45% Cheshire, 1% Irish (or Scottish), 25% south Derbyshire, 13% Burton on Trent area (where 4 counties within 10 miles), 7% Shropshire, 1% Staffs, 8% Lancs. So far all British Isles despite what some testing companies say.

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