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Thread: I2a+ in Britain: which boat did your ancestor get on?

  1. #11
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    Hello Jean
    I thought I would mention my uncle who I am the admin for tested positive for L621 and negative for I-CTS4002. My terminal SNP according to FTDNA is CTS10936. I apparently am the only sample so far like this so CTS10936 can no longer be considered the same as CTS4002 but rather came before it. My oldest paper trail comes from southwest Germany in Baden. I have submitted my sample to YFull but it won't be done until late October they say.
    Thanks
    Last edited by ronzo; 06-24-2017 at 04:33 AM.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronzo View Post
    I apparently am the only sample so far like this so CTS10936 can no longer be considered the same as CTS4002 but rather came before it. My oldest paper trail comes from southwest Germany in Baden. I have submitted my sample to YFull but it won't be done until late October they say.
    Thanks
    Welcome to the forum Ronzo! That is very helpful. I have added it to my notes.

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    No - what I have for CTS616 is I2a2a1, not I2a1a1. Here is what I have for your brother's line:

    • I2a1 (P37.2/PF4004) I2a1* is rare today. The earliest example so far discovered was in Mesolithic Ukraine 8280-7967 calBCE. One sample was found in a Pitted Ware hunter-gatherer, and another at Motala in Mesolithic Sweden 5898-5531 BC. Two examples of I2a1 have been found in the DNA of Neolithic farmers. They were among the burials in the Cave of Treilles in Aveyron, in the South of France. The Treilles culture of c. 3000 BC is the very last phase of the Neolithic in the region before the arrival of the Bell Beaker culture. Ken Nordtvedt considers their haplotypes consistent with I2a1a (M26).
    • I2a1a (M26) looks like a clade that sprang from I2a assimilated by farmers, and which moved westward with Impressed Ware. The makers of this pottery seem to have moved by sea along the coast from the Levant around the northern Mediterranean to Iberia and then up the Garonne. If so, then the most likely place for Impressed Ware makers from the Near East to take on board a man carrying I2a would be Western Anatolia. Impressed Ware has been found on the Anatolian coast. I2a1a represents about 37% of the Y-DNA in Sardinia. That suggests a founder effect. There is scant evidence of human life on Sardinia before farming arrived. Sardinian obsidian found outside Sardinia has been taken as proof of its trade by hunter-gatherers, yet little of it can be dated before the Neolithic. The permanent settlement of the island seems to start with farmers making Cardial pottery - a type of Impressed Ware. I2a1a is found in certain other places where Cardial Ware turns up in the archaeological record, such as eastern Spain. It runs at between 3% and 9% in Pyrennean Basques and their French neighbours in Béarn and Chalosse.
    • I2alal (M26/PF4056). This haplogroup appears in the Copper Age Remedello culture of northern Italy. There is another sample in Chalcolithic Spain from El Mirador, Burgos, and Bell Beaker samples from Hungary and Portugal.


    As you can see, it is unclear whether your brother's haplogroup would have arrived in Britain in the Neolithic or with Bell Beaker or both. Frankly I would go for Bell Beaker, as there is no Cardial Ware in the British Neolithic. But the big BB paper turned up a surprise by suggesting some Iberian influence on the British and Irish Neolithic. Time will tell.

    Huh, how about that. I found a FTDNA surname group that had Y-descendants of one of my ancestors, and John Mead Sr. (born ~1634, Kent or 1628, Watford; died February 5, 1699 in Greenwich, Fairfield, Connecticut) is listed there as I2a1 P37.


    From some other descendant's notes:
    John Mead, ... , the son of William and Philippa Mead, started out in his younger years being what we would call a juvenile delinquent. He even spent time in a New Haven jail. It was said of him on record, “he was an excitable young man and a public nuisance.”
    Last edited by Dewsloth; 09-15-2017 at 12:07 AM.
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112 (S17075-)

    Y-cousin: 6DRIF-23 (DF19>>Z17112+, S17075+)

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    No - what I have for CTS616 is I2a2a1, not I2a1a1. Here is what I have for your brother's line:

    • I2a1 (P37.2/PF4004) I2a1* is rare today. The earliest example so far discovered was in Mesolithic Ukraine 8280-7967 calBCE. One sample was found in a Pitted Ware hunter-gatherer, and another at Motala in Mesolithic Sweden 5898-5531 BC. Two examples of I2a1 have been found in the DNA of Neolithic farmers. They were among the burials in the Cave of Treilles in Aveyron, in the South of France. The Treilles culture of c. 3000 BC is the very last phase of the Neolithic in the region before the arrival of the Bell Beaker culture. Ken Nordtvedt considers their haplotypes consistent with I2a1a (M26).
    • I2a1a (M26) looks like a clade that sprang from I2a assimilated by farmers, and which moved westward with Impressed Ware. The makers of this pottery seem to have moved by sea along the coast from the Levant around the northern Mediterranean to Iberia and then up the Garonne. If so, then the most likely place for Impressed Ware makers from the Near East to take on board a man carrying I2a would be Western Anatolia. Impressed Ware has been found on the Anatolian coast. I2a1a represents about 37% of the Y-DNA in Sardinia. That suggests a founder effect. There is scant evidence of human life on Sardinia before farming arrived. Sardinian obsidian found outside Sardinia has been taken as proof of its trade by hunter-gatherers, yet little of it can be dated before the Neolithic. The permanent settlement of the island seems to start with farmers making Cardial pottery - a type of Impressed Ware. I2a1a is found in certain other places where Cardial Ware turns up in the archaeological record, such as eastern Spain. It runs at between 3% and 9% in Pyrennean Basques and their French neighbours in Béarn and Chalosse.
    • I2alal (M26/PF4056). This haplogroup appears in the Copper Age Remedello culture of northern Italy. There is another sample in Chalcolithic Spain from El Mirador, Burgos, and Bell Beaker samples from Hungary and Portugal.


    As you can see, it is unclear whether your brother's haplogroup would have arrived in Britain in the Neolithic or with Bell Beaker or both. Frankly I would go for Bell Beaker, as there is no Cardial Ware in the British Neolithic. But the big BB paper turned up a surprise by suggesting some Iberian influence on the British and Irish Neolithic. Time will tell.
    Am I mistaken or wasn't I-M26 found among Mesolithic Motala remains?

    Also, I would point out that Bichon, way up in the Jura far from any coast, was (called at least) CTS-595, a few mutations short of an M26.

    I would offer that I2a could have hopped on the Impressa Ware boat anywhere along the Adriatic, or even farther west.

    Anatolia is nice enough, if I2a came from there, why did they all leave... or are there some there still.

    Just wondering.
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  8. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by bix View Post
    Am I mistaken or wasn't I-M26 found among Mesolithic Motala remains? ... Anatolia is nice enough, if I2a came from there, why did they all leave... or are there some there still.
    • Palaeolithic. The first big question is where Y-DNA haplogroup I2 was sheltering from the cold during the worst of the Ice Age. Given that the haplogroup is strongly European in distribution, I would bet on somewhere in southern Europe, perhaps south-eastern Europe. The Grotte de Bichon seems too far north to be winter quarters. The sample there was more likely roaming during the summer.
    • Mesolithic. I2 subclades spread north in the Mesolithic, as the climate warmed. We can picture some I2 hunter-gatherers following the herds of cold-adapted animals like reindeer as they moved to Scandinavia. But some stayed in the Balkans, perhaps taking advantage of the ample fishing in the Danube or other rivers. This probably would be where the first contact with farmers took place, for:
    • Neolithic. There are bursts of new lineages in I2 at c. 8,000 years ago = 6000 BC, as farming reached the Danube Basin. So it seems that at least some I2 foragers adopted farming from incoming farmers, or joined their communities. KO1 is an example of this - a man carrying I2a in a Koros farming community in Tiszaszölös-Domahaza, Hungary in 5781-5715 calBCE.
    • Impressed Ware. But how did I2a1a (M26) get on board the Impressed Ware movement? That's the puzzle, for Impressed Ware seems to have come from the Levant. I2a1a represents about 37% of the Y-DNA in Sardinia, and looks like a founder effect. So I was looking east of Sardinia. If it was Anatolia, that would be explained by Mesolithic drift along the coast from Europe, I think, rather than Anatolia being the LGM refuge. But as you say, there are other possibilities for the place I2 fell in with Impressed Ware farmers.
    Last edited by Jean M; 09-15-2017 at 02:48 PM.

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