Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 48

Thread: East Eurasian in 'Tajik people'

  1. #11
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,298
    Sex
    mtDNA (M)
    u2b2 gonur;swat

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Davidski has shown that much of the East Eurasian-ancestry among modern day Tajiks and especially Pashtuns is pre-turkic and more scythian/amerinidian like. I would be very surprised if ancient Bactrians and Sogdians lacked East Eurasian admixture. But the turkic immigration later definetly had a genetic impact and many Tajiks have recent Uzbek ancestry. Also Tajiks extremely differ in their East Asian admixture. Some will almost lack it and some will resemble Uzbeks. Tajiks don't have a common origin and Tajik is an umbrella term for Persian-speaking people of Central Asia who not shared a common identity untill recently
    Bull's eye.
    Edit: Identifying with their homeland is more crucial for people under the "Tajik" term than identifying as Tajik ethnically. A Herati Tajik does not identify ethnically with a Panjshiri tajik or a Tajik from Dushanbe in 'general'.
    Last edited by surbakhunWeesste; 05-23-2017 at 06:24 AM.

  2. #12
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,722
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R2a*-M124 (L295-)
    mtDNA (M)
    D4j5*

    Quote Originally Posted by fished View Post
    Don't forget that we also have remains from Xinjiang circa 2500 - 2000 BC that were a mix of West and East Eurasian based on their haplogroups. They've been speculated to have possibly been Tocharian speakers. I think that it's possible there have been a lot of disparate population movements bringing East Eurasian into Central Asia that will be revealed by more ancient DNA from the region, some of them associated with Indo-Iranians. But yeah, interaction with Turkic speakers is probably responsible for a lot of the East Asian among modern Tajiks.
    There isn't much archaeological evidence of an east-to-west migration from the Tarim into the Pamirs proper during that time period. Chinese anthropologists inferred a migration event in the other direction during the Iron Age (physically "Mediterranean" Saka). During the EMBA period, Tajikistan was home to indigenous BMAC-related agriculturalist tin miners (Zeravshan valley). We don't see any clear material evidence of the folks you're describing there (Afanasievo-related southern colony).

    As I mentioned above, there are some Pamiri Tajiks living within China (western slopes of the Tarim basin). They specifically could have some of that MBA admixture, yes.

    Outside of the Tarim later on, most certainly, mixed Eurasians made their way towards the Pamirs. They'd be our Turkic speakers. We'd also have to factor in potential Chinese admixture once the Silk Road was founded during the Han dynasty. Though, realistically, that's probably the smallest contributing source of the ones we've discussed above.

    If I were to guess, the East Eurasian source groups in Tajiks from Tajikistan would be Turkish > Mongolian > Iron Age Scythian-related > Near-negligible (e.g. Chinese). That being said, I strongly suspect a high degree of differentiation will exist depending on the location, so the above is just a generalisation. Pamiris would probably be mainly a combination of Turkish and Iron Age Scythian-related IMO.

  3. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to DMXX For This Useful Post:

     Kulin (05-24-2017),  NK19191 (12-03-2018)

  4. #13
    Registered Users
    Posts
    177
    Sex
    Location
    جای کیان
    Ethnicity
    Tajik-Pashtun
    Y-DNA (P)
    L1a1
    mtDNA (M)
    R0a2d

    Greater Khorasan Saffarid Dynasty Ghaznavid Dynasty Late United States of America Afghanistan Tajikistan
    It depends on the region. Much of it comes from Uzbeks; "Uzbek" is also an umbrella term though and they are not genetically homogeneous themselves. Some Tajiks in western, central and northeast Afghanistan intermarried with Hazaras and Aimaqs. Tajiks from Samarqand and Bukhara also settled in Afghanistan at various points in history (the Soviet period as refugees, the reign of the Khanate and Emirate of Bukhara and their vassals in northern Afghanistan from the 16th-19th century, and centuries ago during the Samanid and Khwarazmian periods). Some of the East Eurasian admixture among Afghan Tajiks can be attributed to them. Cultural traditions like Qarsak ultimately have origins north of the Amu Darya and were brought to Afghanistan by Samarqandi and Bukhari Tajiks.

    The East Eurasian admixture in Pamiri groups probably predates the advent of Turkic speakers in the region, but like Sunni Tajiks of Badakhshan their region fell under the rule of Turkic and Turko-Mongol dynasties and they had contact with different Turkic groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by parasar
    Proximity to South Asia I guess. Almost no region of South Asia changed its language to the Turko-Mongol family despite their near continuous hegemony in northern South Asia for a long-long period.
    Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, and Kyrgyzstan changed, starting about 400AD.
    Proximity to South Asia didn't have much to do with it. Many areas in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan were centers of Persian culture and literature throughout the Islamic period. Samarqand, Bukhara, Termez and neighboring localities remained so until the 20th century.

  5. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Rukha For This Useful Post:

     Kulin (05-28-2017),  NK19191 (12-03-2018),  Saad2016 (12-01-2018)

  6. #14
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,385
    Sex
    Location
    Western Norway
    Ethnicity
    Norwegian
    Nationality
    Norwegian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-FT71931
    mtDNA (M)
    U5b1b1(T16192C)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (P)
    H13a1a

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    I was wondering what is the exact source of the East Eurasian in modern-day Tajik people? They are known to be descendants of the Bactrians/Sogdians who've underwent Persianisation under the Samanid rulers. Is the East Eurasian in them an ancient component present since the Indo-Iranian expansion or is it a recent one, accumulated by mixture with Turks/Mongols etc.
    To answer that correctly it is likely beneficiary to look at segment matching with modern day non-Iranic speaking peoples, using mainly samples of Tajiks in both Uzbekistan and Tajikistan as well as Yagnobi speaking Tajiks. So as to establish a timeline for when the various populations "mixed" with one another (they might have included Tajiks in a study which featured an interactive map, but I cannot remember the name of the study so I am unable to verify this, would be great if any one remembers the name of this study?).

    - edit, they did not include Tajiks http://admixturemap.paintmychromosomes.com

    My best guess would be that the "source" for eastern admixture is diverse and not belonging to one singular event, or from one ethnic group. The reason I say not singular is because there has been west, as well as southward migrations of people into Sogdiana since at least the Bronze age, especially Turkic and Iranian speaking peoples from the steppe. There has also been a more gradual migration of Chinese speaking peoples into central Asia since at least the Han empire onwards. It is also possible that the migrations of south Asian peoples into central Asia could have brought with them such a DNA signature..

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to evon For This Useful Post:

     Kulin (05-29-2017)

  8. #15
    Moderator
    Posts
    1,320
    Sex
    Location
    CANZUK
    Ethnicity
    Bengali
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-Z2432
    mtDNA (M)
    A11-a*
    Y-DNA (M)
    H-Z12547*
    mtDNA (P)
    M30g

    Canada Bangladesh Jammu and Kashmir India Pakistan Sri Lanka
    Bump, any more insights?

    It is actually quite sad regarding the 'Uzbekization' policies during the Soviet era and the resulting decline of Persianate culture and language in cities of Samarqand, Bukhara, Tirmiz etc but I won't get political here.

    I was actually wondering if groups like Soghdians and Bactrians maybe had differing percentages of pre-Turkic East Eurasian admixture. You can even see how Turkmens, who are probably descendants of Oghuz tribes who mixed with Khwarezmians are much less East Eurasian on average than Karluk groups like Uzbeks and Uyghurs, who are Karluk Turks mixed with native Soghdians and Tarimian/Tocharians respectively. We do have Kangju samples who were most likely Soghdians (as well as that of related Wusun and Saka groups). Does this shed any light on the topic?

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Kulin For This Useful Post:

     palamede (11-30-2018)

  10. #16
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,722
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R2a*-M124 (L295-)
    mtDNA (M)
    D4j5*

    The Turkmen appear to be less East Eurasian than Uyghurs, Uzbeks and Kazakhs because they didn't have as much involvement in the historical conception of the Turko-Mongol tradition that developed during the Medieval period.

    A quick G25 nMonte run to test this idea:

    Code:
    Model	Sample	Details	Fit	Map	Hasanlu IA	Kangju	Karakhanid	Turkmenistan IA
    1	Hasanlu_IA +Kangju +Karakhanid +Turkmenistan_IA	Turkmen:Average		1.9519	Open Map	20.83	51.67	25.83	1.67
    2	Hasanlu_IA +Kangju +Karakhanid +Turkmenistan_IA	Uzbek:Average		2.8807	Open Map	1.67	32.5	62.5	3.33
    A straight combination of rural Iron Age NW Iranian, Kangju (likely Soghdian), Turkmenistan_IA (likely Dahae) and Karakhanid (Oghuz-ancestral) works very well for the Turkmen, less so for the Uzbek.

    Adding in Mongola:

    Code:
    	Model	Sample	Details	Fit	Map	Hasanlu IA	Kangju	Karakhanid	Mongola	Turkmenistan IA
    1	Hasanlu_IA +Kangju +Karakhanid +Mongola +Turkmenistan_IA	Turkmen:Average		1.8706	Open Map	21.67	60	10.83	5.83	1.67
    2	Hasanlu_IA +Kangju +Karakhanid +Mongola +Turkmenistan_IA	Uzbek:Average		2.1196	Open Map	10	56.67	16.67	13.33	3.33
    Both fits improve by about the same amount (~25%), but observe the difference in Mongola between them.

    You can extend this model to include Azeris (both Republic and Iranian) by adding Armenia_EBA/Kura-Araxes as a ref pop, and the results are as expected (effectively 0% Mongola, with Karakhanid eating up the East Eurasian):

    Code:
    Model	Sample	Details	Fit	Map	Armenia EBA	Hasanlu IA	Kangju	Karakhanid	Mongola	Turkmenistan IA
    1	Armenia_EBA +Hasanlu_IA +Kangju +Karakhanid +Mongola +Turkmenistan_IA	Azeri:Average		2.9215	Open Map	29.17	54.17	11.67	5	0	0
    2	Armenia_EBA +Hasanlu_IA +Kangju +Karakhanid +Mongola +Turkmenistan_IA	Azeri_Iran:Average		2.664	Open Map	24.17	58.33	12.5	4.17	0.83	0
    3	Armenia_EBA +Hasanlu_IA +Kangju +Karakhanid +Mongola +Turkmenistan_IA	Turkmen:Average		2.0779	Open Map	19.17	5	48.33	20	5.83	1.67
    4	Armenia_EBA +Hasanlu_IA +Kangju +Karakhanid +Mongola +Turkmenistan_IA	Uzbek:Average		2.1529	Open Map	7.5	5	51.67	13.33	15.83	6.67
    I'd imagine most Turks from Turkey will largely be the same (the Karakhanid:Mongola ratio will be predominantly shifted to the left).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin
    I was actually wondering if groups like Soghdians and Bactrians maybe had differing percentages of pre-Turkic East Eurasian admixture.
    The aDNA we have so far suggests that East Eurasian ancestry wasn't present in South-Central Asia during the Bronze Age. Further north (Kazakh steppe), we find evidence of it appearing in the Iron Age. By extension, we should expect it to appear at (or after) the Iron Age in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan.

    This is precisely what we see - We have some aDNA from the Iron Age and early Classical period for the likely ancestors of the Dahae (Turkmenistan_IA) and the Soghdians (Kangju):

    Code:
    Model	Sample	Details	Fit	Map	Han	Hasanlu IA	Namazga Eneolithic	Sintashta MLBA	West Siberia N
    2	Han +Hasanlu_IA +Namazga_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +West_Siberia_N	Kangju:DA121		2.1261	Open Map	5.83	10.83	25.83	57.5	0
    3	Han +Hasanlu_IA +Namazga_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +West_Siberia_N	Kangju:DA123		3.4163	Open Map	14.17	8.33	22.5	46.67	8.33
    4	Han +Hasanlu_IA +Namazga_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +West_Siberia_N	Kangju:DA125		2.6117	Open Map	6.67	5	22.5	61.67	4.17
    5	Han +Hasanlu_IA +Namazga_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +West_Siberia_N	Kangju:DA206		2.1693	Open Map	5.83	20	23.33	50	0.83
    6	Han +Hasanlu_IA +Namazga_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +West_Siberia_N	Kangju:DA222		7.9215	Open Map	40	15	15.83	10	19.17
    7	Han +Hasanlu_IA +Namazga_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +West_Siberia_N	Kangju:DA226		2.2998	Open Map	9.17	4.17	16.67	67.5	2.5
    8	Han +Hasanlu_IA +Namazga_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +West_Siberia_N	Kangju:DA229		2.9133	Open Map	9.17	4.17	18.33	61.67	6.67
    9	Han +Hasanlu_IA +Namazga_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +West_Siberia_N	Turkmenistan_IA:DA382		1.5734	Open Map	1.67	10	40	48.33	0
    The range in Iron Age Turkmenistan-Uzbekistan looks to be about 2-14% for pre-Turkish, pre-Mongolian East Eurasian. Kangju_DA222 always behaves strangely (haven't been able to get a fit below 7 for that one).

    Running the same setup with the Turkmen and Uzbek:

    Code:
    	Model	Sample	Details	Fit	Map	Han	Hasanlu IA	Namazga Eneolithic	Sintashta MLBA	West Siberia N
    1	Han +Hasanlu_IA +Namazga_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +West_Siberia_N	Turkmen:Average		5.3177	Open Map	25.83	32.5	15	23.33	3.33
    2	Han +Hasanlu_IA +Namazga_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +West_Siberia_N	Uzbek:Average		4.9316	Open Map	33.33	14.17	21.67	20	10.83
    Quite clear that the Turkmen and Uzbek derive the majority of their East Eurasian ancestry from later Turkish or Mongolian-speaking groups (Turkmen predominantly Turkish per the first set of stats).

    [Edit]: Running myself (half Iranian Azeri half Persian) alongside individual Iranian and Republic Azeris out of curiosity with a similar setup as the third nMonte run (Kangju and Turkmenistan_IA isn't necessary; replacing with Sintashta):

    Code:
    Model	Sample	Details	Fit	Map	Armenia EBA	Hasanlu IA	Karakhanid	Mongola	Namazga Eneolithic	Sintashta MLBA
    1	Armenia_EBA +Hasanlu_IA +Karakhanid +Mongola +Namazga_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA	Azeri:Average		2.6883	Open Map	26.67	60	7.5	0.83	0	5
    2	Armenia_EBA +Hasanlu_IA +Karakhanid +Mongola +Namazga_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA	Azeri_Iran:Average		2.2372	Open Map	24.17	61.67	6.67	1.67	0	5.83
    3	Armenia_EBA +Hasanlu_IA +Karakhanid +Mongola +Namazga_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA	Custom:AGUser_DMXX		2.5662	Open Map	4.17	75.83	5.83	1.67	4.17	8.33
    Yup, same pattern. Karakhanid > Mongola (4:1 ratio at the least).
    Last edited by DMXX; 12-01-2018 at 05:30 PM. Reason: further comments

  11. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to DMXX For This Useful Post:

     Kulin (12-01-2018),  NK19191 (12-02-2018),  palamede (12-02-2018)

  12. #17
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,722
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R2a*-M124 (L295-)
    mtDNA (M)
    D4j5*

    Here's a historically sensible run for various Central Asian populations (fits are good):

    Code:
    	Model	Sample	Details	Fit	Map	Gonur1 BA	Hasanlu IA	Kangju	Karakhanid	Mongola	Sarmatian Urals	Wusun
    1	Gonur1_BA +Hasanlu_IA +Kangju +Karakhanid +Mongola +Sarmatian_Urals +Wusun	Kazakh:Average		2.8015	Open Map	0	0	10.83	69.17	16.67	1.67	1.67
    2	Gonur1_BA +Hasanlu_IA +Kangju +Karakhanid +Mongola +Sarmatian_Urals +Wusun	Kyrgyz:Average		2.7557	Open Map	0	0	10.83	59.17	30	0	0
    3	Gonur1_BA +Hasanlu_IA +Kangju +Karakhanid +Mongola +Sarmatian_Urals +Wusun	Tajik:Average		1.998	Open Map	30	0	37.5	0	0	8.33	24.17
    4	Gonur1_BA +Hasanlu_IA +Kangju +Karakhanid +Mongola +Sarmatian_Urals +Wusun	Tajik_Ishkashim:Average		2.4497	Open Map	34.17	0	0	0.83	2.5	3.33	59.17
    5	Gonur1_BA +Hasanlu_IA +Kangju +Karakhanid +Mongola +Sarmatian_Urals +Wusun	Tajik_Rushan:Average		1.4545	Open Map	21.67	0	35.83	2.5	0	5	35
    6	Gonur1_BA +Hasanlu_IA +Kangju +Karakhanid +Mongola +Sarmatian_Urals +Wusun	Tajik_Shugnan:Average		1.5135	Open Map	25.83	0	26.67	0.83	1.67	1.67	43.33
    7	Gonur1_BA +Hasanlu_IA +Kangju +Karakhanid +Mongola +Sarmatian_Urals +Wusun	Tajik_Yagnobi:Average		1.1664	Open Map	22.5	10	50.83	0	0	9.17	7.5
    8	Gonur1_BA +Hasanlu_IA +Kangju +Karakhanid +Mongola +Sarmatian_Urals +Wusun	Turkmen:Average		2.0089	Open Map	8.33	15	55.83	10.83	6.67	0	3.33
    9	Gonur1_BA +Hasanlu_IA +Kangju +Karakhanid +Mongola +Sarmatian_Urals +Wusun	Uzbek:Average		2.0177	Open Map	15	0	29.17	25	16.67	6.67	7.5
    The Yaghnobi are interesting - All of their East Eurasian looks pre-Karakhanid and pre-Mongol. They're also the Tajik population who're linked to the Soghdians linguistically. If one considers them a living proxy for the sake of discussion, they're about 5% East Eurasian:

    Code:
    Model	Sample	Details	Fit	Map	Gonur1 BA	Han	Hasanlu IA	Sintashta MLBA
    1	Gonur1_BA +Han +Hasanlu_IA +Sintashta_MLBA	Tajik_Yagnobi:Average		1.0594	Open Map	47.5	5	5.83	41.67
    Worth noting that the Pamiri Tajiks in general don't register much Karakhanid or Mongol, though it does appear. This is expected, given the centuries of interaction between them and Kyrgyz nomads (particularly around the Wakhan corridor).

    [Edit]: Just saw my post from 2017 - Looks like this guess didn't end up being correct:

    Turkish > Mongolian > Iron Age Scythian-related
    The order of admixture now looks to be Iron Age Scythian-related >>> Turko-Mongol.

    [Edit 2]: Just realised the Yaghnobis are about 50% Kangju, so it stands to reason that they shouldn't be considered a living proxy for the Soghdians. Looks like the Yaghnobis received additional Iranian agriculturalist and steppe admixture.

  13. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to DMXX For This Useful Post:

     Kulin (12-01-2018),  NK19191 (12-02-2018),  palamede (12-02-2018)

  14. #18
    Banned
    Posts
    1,665
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Davidski has shown that much of the East Eurasian-ancestry among modern day Tajiks and especially Pashtuns is pre-turkic and more scythian/amerinidian like. I would be very surprised if ancient Bactrians and Sogdians lacked East Eurasian admixture. But the turkic immigration later definetly had a genetic impact and many Tajiks have recent Uzbek ancestry. Also Tajiks extremely differ in their East Asian admixture. Some will almost lack it and some will resemble Uzbeks. Tajiks don't have a common origin and Tajik is an umbrella term for Persian-speaking people of Central Asia who not shared a common identity untill recently
    My perception Tajiks had impact on Turkic tribes settled Transoxiana/ In other words Uzbeks have plenty of Tajiks ancestry. People that lived in mountains of Tajikistan and mountains of northern Afghanisan kept Farsi. 93% of Tajikistan are mountains. They weren't assimilated by Turkic. Four Turkic tribes (most likely speakers of Chagatai branch of Turkic languages ) arrived in Transoxiana and many settled in cities mixing with locals assuming their lifestyle. Not long agho urban dwellers of Uzbikastan were known as Sarts. Today, the term has a negative connotation used by Kyrgyz and Kazakhs, who states *Uzbeks neglected traditional nomadic lifestyle.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart
    Last edited by Volat; 12-02-2018 at 06:37 AM.

  15. #19
    Banned
    Posts
    1,665
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukha View Post
    It depends on the region. Much of it comes from Uzbeks; "Uzbek" is also an umbrella term though and they are not genetically homogeneous themselves. Some Tajiks
    Тhat's true. At least in terms of physical appearance. Uzbeks of Ferghana valley, and regions of Samarkand and Bukhara look as Tajiks. As you go further west from Ferghana valley into steppes of Tashkent region (near southern Kazakhstan) you will find Mongoloid features in many people. Of course Tashkent is a cosmopolitan city.

  16. #20
    Registered Users
    Posts
    348
    Sex
    Location
    America
    Ethnicity
    Pashtun
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Z93
    mtDNA (M)
    U2c1

    United States of America Pashtunistan Afghanistan Greater Khorasan Azad Baluchistan Tajikistan
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Davidski has shown that much of the East Eurasian-ancestry among modern day Tajiks and especially Pashtuns is pre-turkic and more scythian/amerinidian like. I would be very surprised if ancient Bactrians and Sogdians lacked East Eurasian admixture. But the turkic immigration later definetly had a genetic impact and many Tajiks have recent Uzbek ancestry. Also Tajiks extremely differ in their East Asian admixture. Some will almost lack it and some will resemble Uzbeks. Tajiks don't have a common origin and Tajik is an umbrella term for Persian-speaking people of Central Asia who not shared a common identity untill recently
    The EE among Pashtuns is likely almost exclusively pre-Turkic, but I don't think the same can be said for Tajiks. Their EE is very high and most of it must be from Turks since they have significantly more than even Pamiris. I've seen a Kabuli Tajik with 10% EE and that's pretty low by Tajik standards if I'm not mistaken. I don't think that most of the EE/Turkic in Tajiks came directly from Turks, but from Persianized Turks that got assimilated into the Tajik corpus after the Persianization of the region. Even some Sunni Hazaras (who are genetically very close to Uzbeks & Uyghurs) in northern Afghanistan recently started identifying with the Tajik ethnicity. Only a minority of the EE among Tajiks is gonna be pre-Turkic IMO. The EE among Pamiris is likely mostly pre-Turkic, but I can imagine a portion of it being Turkic as well given their geography.

    By the way, I've heard from someone before that the EE among Pashtuns is almost entirely ANE that was misread as EE. Is there any basis for such a claim?
    Last edited by Mingle; 12-02-2018 at 06:23 PM.

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. East Eurasian ancestry in various Turkic populations
    By Alkaevli in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 68
    Last Post: 10-12-2020, 04:58 PM
  2. East Eurasian internal branching
    By ren in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 12-20-2019, 09:00 AM
  3. Replies: 10
    Last Post: 01-03-2019, 11:43 PM
  4. What is South East Eurasian?
    By Lara101 in forum Southern
    Replies: 324
    Last Post: 11-12-2017, 09:50 PM
  5. Replies: 52
    Last Post: 02-18-2015, 10:14 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •