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Thread: Central Asian R1b Exists

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    Central Asian R1b Exists

    I've recently gotten a hold of some Y-STR data from a very old paper concerning Central Asian Y-DNA from a listed source for contact. Of the 16 STR's, fortunately, 14 were compatible with Urasin's Y-Predictor. Approximately 410 samples are present.

    I'm in the middle of processing the data as we speak, but I cannot accurately express my surprise at seeing the persisting presence of predicted R1b-M269 across many of the populations in the region. Many of these predictions exceed 70% probability. A preliminary count shows approximately 10. Bearing in mind it was only a couple of years ago when a few R1b-L23* was discovered in north Afghanistan, it's quite a find. A lot of it seems to sit with the Turkmen, Uyghurs and Uzbeks.

    As the data is not open-access I unfortunately cannot share it publicly in its' entirety. However, it will be featured fairly heavily in an upcoming blog entry revisiting the aforementioned paper. There was some rudimentary SNP testing, which I'll be using to cross-check the R1b predictions. If any R1b experts are interested in viewing the haplotypes please message me.

    [Edit @ 14/07/2013]: To view the blog entry, view post 8.
    Last edited by DMXX; 07-14-2013 at 07:21 AM. Reason: Changed title to reflect change

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    I've recently gotten a hold of some Y-STR data from a very old paper concerning Central Asian Y-DNA from a listed source for contact. Of the 16 STR's, fortunately, 14 were compatible with Urasin's Y-Predictor. Approximately 410 samples are present.

    I'm in the middle of processing the data as we speak, but I cannot accurately express my surprise at seeing the persisting presence of predicted R1b-M269 across many of the populations in the region. Many of these predictions exceed 70% probability. A preliminary count shows approximately 10. Bearing in mind it was only a couple of years ago when a few R1b-L23* was discovered in north Afghanistan, it's quite a find. A lot of it seems to sit with the Turkmen, Uyghurs and Uzbeks.

    As the data is not open-access I unfortunately cannot share it publicly in its' entirety. However, it will be featured fairly heavily in an upcoming blog entry revisiting the aforementioned paper. There was some rudimentary SNP testing, which I'll be using to cross-check the R1b predictions. If any R1b experts are interested in viewing the haplotypes please message me.
    Thank you for your investigation. I think your findings point out the problems of modern population frequency analysis by national boundaries. We can't really expect an even mix of peoples across our modern political geographies. It's important to get down into the details of the various ethnic groups and specific sub-regions.

    What Y STRs do they record? Is DYS426 there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Thank you for your investigation. I think your findings point out the problems of modern population frequency analysis by national boundaries. We can't really expect an even mix of peoples across our modern political geographies. It's important to get down into the details of the various ethnic groups and specific sub-regions.

    What Y STRs do they record? Is DYS426 there?
    I agree - In addition, I think we as a community must constantly appraise assertions made based on a handful of papers against the rest without falling into the trap of "locking down" on circulating ideas. How often have we read online that Y-DNA R1b's presence in Central Asia is practically non-existent?

    Before sharing the STR's, I can also now confirm the data will be made public after clarifying the issue with the listed source (Dr. Tyler-Smith). All R1b enthusiasts can take a good hard look at the raw numbers shortly.

    These were the STR's I used (14). I had to leave out DYS434+5 due to Urasin's Y-Predictor.

    Code:
    DYS19	DYS388	DYS389I	DYS389II	DYS390	DYS391	DYS392	DYS393	DYS425	DYS426	DYS436	DYS437	DYS438	DYS439

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    How often have we read online that Y-DNA R1b's in Central Asia is practically non-existent?
    Probably someone said that R1b in Central Asia was not existent in ancient DNA and this is difficulty deniable. I'll be glad to look at these haplotypes. About their origin we'll see. There are Indo-European peoples there and probably you know that I don't think that Indo-European languages came from India.

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    Interesting. Would have thought for sure it would have been concentrated in Tajiks. Then again Turkmenistan had the strongest Neolithic links with West Asia compared to the other states.
    Last edited by newtoboard; 07-05-2013 at 11:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    I agree - In addition, I think we as a community must constantly appraise assertions made based on a handful of papers against the rest without falling into the trap of "locking down" on circulating ideas. How often have we read online that Y-DNA R1b's presence in Central Asia is practically non-existent?
    I think this is an area that Alan will agree or has commented on.

    My perspective on a vast area like the Eurasian Steppes is a little bit like a kitchen countertop or a chef's workspace. There has been so many ingredients sliced, diced, mixed and washed away that looking at the open space of the countertop today may not tell us much. Now, we might a few crumbs of something old in the corner or behind the spice rack that were lost (safely) in the shuffle.

    Go figure, I guess was helping out in the kitchen too much yesterday for our July 4th celebrations.

    This is why I am not so optimistic on ancient DNA findings. I don't think we'll ever get an adequate survey of the full territories we want to with the time depths we want. We might miss the important pocket or ethnic group and of course how do we know which remnants are important versus red herrings? It is clearly a complex puzzle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    I agree - In addition, I think we as a community must constantly appraise assertions made based on a handful of papers against the rest without falling into the trap of "locking down" on circulating ideas. How often have we read online that Y-DNA R1b's presence in Central Asia is practically non-existent?

    Before sharing the STR's, I can also now confirm the data will be made public after clarifying the issue with the listed source (Dr. Tyler-Smith). All R1b enthusiasts can take a good hard look at the raw numbers shortly.

    These were the STR's I used (14). I had to leave out DYS434+5 due to Urasin's Y-Predictor.

    Code:
    DYS19	DYS388	DYS389I	DYS389II	DYS390	DYS391	DYS392	DYS393	DYS425	DYS426	DYS436	DYS437	DYS438	DYS439
    It will be very interesting to hear the results of your work on this. I think its already been shown that both M73 and L23* have been encorporated in a somewhat patchy way into Turkic groups. I personally think that the way R1b shows all across the steppes and as far east as Uygurs in Altai etc suggests to me that it had spread well to the east by the time of the Turkic expansion. You could read that is a couple of ways - either it was mainly far to the east and absorbed and swept west by the Turks or it was spread from Ukraine to Chine and the Turks just so happened to follow the same route in reverse. I think the latter is most likely because Klyosov has shown that while these central Asian turkic groups tend to have relatively recent common ancestry, the common ancestor between M73 in these central Asian groups is very old. Anatole massively inflated this due to some multicopy error (see thread on this linking to old rootsweb thread involving Anatole, Vince V etc) but even when corrected this came in about 5000BC. I think that tends to suggest a sequence of local absorbing of M73* across the steppe from China to west Ukraine rather than a single sweeping up of it far to the east and pushing west by the Turks. Also, we know M73 dates to about 5000BC and has a common ancestor with M269 about 9000BC (plus or minus 1000 years). There is not any plausible evidence for a group of P297* heading deep into central Asia from the west in the period 9000-4000BC and the altenative of R1b heading west from central Asia in that timeframe doesnt seem to be held by anyone other than Anatole based on a miscalculation of the age of M73. There is no archaeological evidence of such a move from the east in that timeframe and there is also no archaeological evidence I am aware of of a move of Europeans or SW Asians into central Asia before Afansievo. So I think that we can rule out a position for P297* or M73* or M269 east of the Urals prior to Afansievo. Indeed the latter two had only just come into existence shortly before (c. 4-5000BC) and actual P297* doesnt exist today as far as I am aware. So, I think there is a strong logic to saying early R1b on this branch c. 9000BC-4000BC (P297* lines) was north of the early farming areas of SW Asia and east of the Urals before 4000BC. I would also rule out the early Neolithic European peoples on the basis of it being too early for the surviving branches of R1b there and on its absence in ancient DNA. I think R1b lurked somewhere in the arc from the Bosphoros, the west and north shores of the Black Sea, the Caucasus and NW Iran, all areas which fit to some degree the timeframes of the main R1b branches. It is slighly easier to see M73 as being on the stretch between the NW corner of the Black Sea and the north Caucasus though.

    I have already posted many times that the Ural Bashkirs owned the Cargaly Bronze Age mining area before selling to the Russian state. I suspect they absorbed their R1b from people around that area although its a guess. Many metallurgical experts believe that the mining and metallurgy must have been brought from the Caucasus although the metal source they found was pure copper and not as good for copper tools. They must have had some relationship with the Yamnaya or immediate pre-Yamnaya groups who dominated the area. As the pure copper network covered a different area of the steppes from the Caucasian metal (in the south-west steppes) it probably essentially meant a small Maykop type group of specialists were absorbed into a far larger Yamnaya population in the area. I am tempted to see R1b in areas like the Urals as a remnant of this small metallurgical group although that is beyond proof. The age of M73* (and indeed the age of M269 overall) are pretty compatible with the timing of such a spread from the earlier Maykop zone into the steppes.
    Last edited by alan; 07-10-2013 at 11:24 AM.

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    As promised, my fellow genealogists. Looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

    A Hidden Gem in Central Asia: Previously Unknown Y-DNA R1b Haplotype

    Central Asian Y-DNA diversity has been an area of constant intrigue in the genetics community. Wells et
    al.'s The Eurasian Heartland: A continental perspective on Y-chromosome diversity paved the way, with several others following in their regard. Members of the same team (including Dr. Wells) produced another paper - A Genetic Landscape Reshaped by Recent Events: Y-Chromosomal Insights into Central Asia - on the same topic in the following year, this time headed by Dr. Tatania Zerjal. I noted a greater emphasis on East-Central Asian populations as well as a mentioning of Y-STR analysis in the study itself. However, none of this data was supplied, with only Y-SNP information included (shown sporadically in this entry). The age of this paper is apparent through the nomenclature used (see Method section).

    ...
    As readers will see, the Central Asian R1b's in this study all belong to the same haplotype, but its' GD with other samples makes things a bit more interesting.

    One possible interpretation I'll post here rather than in my work (I prefer remaining completely objective on my blog); the better matching in the Caucasus of the Central Asian haplotype rather than among Iranians or Kurds supports it coming around the Caspian in a clockwise (above the Caspian) rather than anticlockwise (below the Caspian). Of course, this compliments Jean's hypothesis of R1b-M269 arriving with some early Indo-Europeans quite well, but I'd personally want to see and compare with data from the Yakut and Xinjiang before hedging my bets. Might investigate that as an addendum at some point.

    I should note that some of the R1b's I'd previously reported in the first post ended up being R1b-M343. You can view those (any many other) haplotypes through my blog entry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    As promised, my fellow genealogists. Looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

    A Hidden Gem in Central Asia: Previously Unknown Y-DNA R1b Haplotype



    As readers will see, the Central Asian R1b's in this study all belong to the same haplotype, but its' GD with other samples makes things a bit more interesting.

    One possible interpretation I'll post here rather than in my work (I prefer remaining completely objective on my blog); the better matching in the Caucasus of the Central Asian haplotype rather than among Iranians or Kurds supports it coming around the Caspian in a clockwise (above the Caspian) rather than anticlockwise (below the Caspian). Of course, this compliments Jean's hypothesis of R1b-M269 arriving with some early Indo-Europeans quite well, but I'd personally want to see and compare with data from the Yakut and Xinjiang before hedging my bets. Might investigate that as an addendum at some point.

    I should note that some of the R1b's I'd previously reported in the first post ended up being R1b-M343. You can view those (any many other) haplotypes through my blog entry.
    I take it that this central Asian haplogroup is an L23XL51 one? I think the idea that the eastern leg of L23 moved clockwise north of the Caspian from somewhere nearer the Caucasus on its eastern travels makes a lot of sense. When you consider the date of L23* and M269* usually suggested that places it in the 4000-3500BC timeframe. A lot happened in the western steppes in that era. It started just after period c. 4500-4000BC of heavy influence by farmers and mutual mixing followed by farming collapse and the movement of the first steppe groups west. L23XL51 is possibly too young for that phase and only M269* might have been old enough for that westward move. It is found in Kosovar/Albanian today, a people whose language indicates were likely once located further east. So its possible that M269* but not L23* could have been an element among those groups like Suvorovo.

    Then there seems to have been a period of remoulding and of influence from Maykop culture/CMP centred in the Kuban region into the southern steppes c. 3500BC. The age of L23XL51 fits best this phase. This was also the period when CMP metallurgy and mining reached the south Urals, Yamnaya gained its wheels etc and Afanasievo may have headed east. I think the combination of factors and the role of Maykop/CMP influences in this may well suggest that L23* was mixed among R1a folks in the Afanasievo movement into central Asia. The archaeological evidence is very much compatible with a near-Caucasus group having at least had a minor human input with the immediate acestors of Yamnaya. So for me Afanasievo is the most likely source of L23XL51 heading east as a fellow travellor with R1a. If I had to guess I think the L23XL51 lineages may have been the metallurgical element.

    If this is all true then the big question remains of the larger impact of the westwards movement of L23XL51. Well if the starting point was indeed the steppe-Caucasus interface zone then L23XL51 could have been carried west in any of the waves from 3500BC onwards. Or perhaps the dating of L23 is a little later than reality and it was carried both east and west a few centuries earlier. I have suggested that L23 was a possible fellow travelor with R1a in Afansievo. Its date is debated, having a few years ago been thought to be c. 3700BC and well pre-Yamnaya but hauled back to something more like 3400-3500BC. It has also been suggested that L23 could have been the main player among the Anatolians too and it does seem to be the main R1 player among some of the pre-Slavic Balkans peoples. Its all a bit unclear but it does make a position around the Caucasus-steppe interface zone at some point in the period 4000-3500BC the most plausible centre point for taking part in both movements east with Afanasievo and west into the Balkans.

    I have pushed the Maykop angle but its also fair to say that the Skelya cultures around the Dnieper-Azov area c. 4500-4000BC (ancestral to Suvorovo-Anatolian?) was also a complex phenomenon which included likely Cuc-Tryp elements (cranial evidence of males, Carpatho-Balkan metal network, pressure flaking knowledge transfer). Now I better understand that, it opens up a number of possibilities for R1b's location and role and the issue of languages. Actually just more questions really lol
    Last edited by alan; 07-14-2013 at 10:31 AM.

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    I cannot speak on the archaeological portions of your posts as I'm not well-versed enough to have a competent opinion (continue to read your messages with enthusiasm however), so I'll address the genetic question:

    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I take it that this central Asian haplogroup is an L23XL51 one?
    Presumably so, yes, since most M269+ in Asia is indeed L23+ as well (perhaps Mikewww or Rich R. could chime in on this), but it'd be impossible to say based on 14 STR's. If they resemble L23xL51 on an STR basis from one of the experts' opinions, that could serve as a surrogate answer.

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