Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 52

Thread: Interesting Pennsylvania Dutch (German) Ethnicity estimate. Why so British?

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    111
    Sex
    Omitted
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Pennsylvania Dutch
    Nationality
    American

    Germany Palatinate Switzerland France Wales United Kingdom United States of America

    Question Interesting Pennsylvania Dutch (German) Ethnicity estimate. Why so British?

    Hello, this is my first time posting instead of just lurking. I thought I would share some of my family results on the off chance someone other than myself might find them interesting. And hopefully to get some feedback on why the results may of came back the way they did. I am also curious to know if others who are of Pennsylvania Dutch descent or from in and around Rhineland-Palatinate in western Europe have had similar results or wildly different ones.

    A bit of a quick background on PA Dutch curtsy of wikipedia.
    The Pennsylvania Dutch (Pennsilfaanisch Deitsch) are a cultural group formed by early German-speaking immigrants to Pennsylvania and their descendants. The word "Dutch" does not refer to the Dutch people (Nederlanders) or their descendants, but to Deitsch (in dialect) or Deutsch (in German). Most emigrated to the U.S. from Germany or Switzerland in the 17th and 18th century. Over time, the various dialects spoken by these immigrants fused into a unique dialect of German known as Pennsylvania German or Pennsylvania "Dutch". At one time, more than one-third of Pennsylvania's population spoke this language.
    My family tree information is pretty full. Thanks in large part to my dads Genealogy hobby, I have information on 247 direct ancestors on my fathers side and 214 on my mothers. Between my fathers work tracing back in time and Ancestry DNA’s cousin matching feature that has helped to confirm the various paper trials I can say my father is very Pennsylvania Dutch, in fact it looks as though he could well be 100%

    So I was pretty confused when I got these results back from his DNA test:

    95% European
    27% Great Britain
    20% Europe West
    17% Iberian Peninsula
    11% Scandinavia
    8 % Ireland
    Low Confidence Regions
    6% Italy/Greece
    5% Europe East
    2% European Jewish
    5% Caucasus

    Genetic Communities™
    Settlers of Colonial Pennsylvania - 95% confidence
    Settlers of the Poconos & North Jersey - 60% confidence
    Settlers of the Susquehanna River Valley - 20% confidence

    I didn’t expect it to come back 100% western European, far from it. I have a reasonable understanding of European history and I expected a wide variety of groups to be represented. But only 20% Europe West? And why so much British? Sure the English were largely decedents from the French and German so maybe it just classified based on the presumably close Genetic Distance? If that is the case, what explains the 8% Irish?

    This was made all the more confusing after getting my mothers test results back.

    98% European
    61% Europe West
    20% Ireland
    Low Confidence Regions
    5% Italy/Greece
    4% Iberian Peninsula
    2% European Jewish
    2% Europe East
    1% Finland/Northwest Russia
    <1% Great Britain
    2% Caucasus

    Genetic Communities™
    Settlers of Colonial Pennsylvania - 95% confidence
    Settlers of the Poconos & North Jersey - 95% confidence

    My mother has 1/4 of a mixture of Welsh, Irish and English according to her family tree, and as much as 75% PA Dutch. Her results on their own were not that surprising. The Irish showed up about what was expected. Having less than 1% GB was a little odd at first, but then I realized all of her English ancestors I knew of were either on the welsh border like Herefordshire, or from the north, like Cheshire, Lancashire, and Yorkshire. That DNA could likely be lumped in with the Irish, Welsh, and Scottish. It was mainly odd in its stark contrast to my fathers. The 61% Europe West seems correct, but higher than expected given typical native average is only 48%. The oddest part to me was that all the Germanic ancestors on both sides of my family came from the same regions of Germany and western Europe in general. the only difference being that my mother had a pair of 4th Great-grandparents who came over from Prussia (Neuwied, Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany) in 1860, instead of the early to mid 1700’s like the rest of our Western European ancestors.

    When I uploaded the kits to GedMatch and ran a few tests, they didn’t look so different anymore.

    Father's Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:
     
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1. North_Atlantic - 44.07
    2. Baltic - 20.08
    3. West_Med - 16.64
    4. East_Med - 8.03
    5. West_Asian - 7.53
    6. Red_Sea - 1.32
    7. Siberian - 0.89
    8. South_Asian - 0.44
    9. Oceanian - 0.35
    10. Northeast_African - 0.24
    11. Sub-Saharan - 0.23
    12. Amerindian - 0.19

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1. South_Dutch - 2.65
    2. West_German - 3.07
    3. French - 5.02
    4. Southeast_English - 7.81
    5. Southwest_English - 8.89
    6. North_German - 9.68
    7. Orcadian - 9.8
    8. North_Dutch - 10.38
    9. Danish - 10.56
    10. Irish - 10.59
    11. Austrian - 10.72
    12. West_Scottish - 10.91
    13. East_German - 12.54
    14. Spanish_Cataluna - 12.58
    15. Norwegian - 12.84
    16. Swedish - 13.87
    17. Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon - 13.92
    18. Spanish_Galicia - 13.94
    19. Portuguese - 13.97
    20. Spanish_Cantabria - 14.92


    Mother's Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:
     
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1. North_Atlantic - 43.56
    2. Baltic - 24.37
    3. West_Med - 15.36
    4. East_Med - 7.6
    5. West_Asian - 6.28
    6. East_Asian - 1.17
    7. Red_Sea - 0.83
    8. Sub-Saharan - 0.43
    9. Amerindian - 0.41

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1. West_German - 2.68
    2. South_Dutch - 2.78
    3. Southeast_English - 7.04
    4. North_German - 7.05
    5. Austrian - 7.62
    6. French - 8.02
    7. North_Dutch - 8.41
    8. Danish - 8.46
    9. Orcadian - 8.67
    10. Southwest_English - 8.88
    11. East_German - 9.04
    12. Irish - 9.73
    13. West_Scottish - 10.32
    14. Norwegian - 10.44
    15. Swedish - 10.8
    16. Hungarian - 12.28
    17. North_Swedish - 14.62
    18. Spanish_Cataluna - 15.54
    19. Serbian - 16.39
    20. Spanish_Galicia - 16.63


    So my father does cluster with the West German after all? If this is the case, whats going on with the Ancestry results?

    Here are a list of my Father's direct ancestors surnames:
     
    Angstadt
    Breil
    Breidegam
    Braun
    Brombacher
    Brunner
    Busch
    Christ/Christmann
    Derr
    Dietrich
    Drach
    Ebbert
    Erlander
    Essig
    Fegley/Vögli
    Fies
    Fischer
    Frey/Frei
    Gaertner/Gärtner
    George/Georg
    Haas
    Hantz
    Heffner
    Hilbert
    Holben
    Kassel
    Keller
    Kistler
    Klein
    Kunkel
    Kurtz
    Lentz/Lenz
    Leitheiser/Leithauser
    Levan
    Martz/Mertz
    Maul
    Meck/Mack
    Moser/Musser
    Moyer
    Orstel/Borstel
    Rausch
    Reider
    Ritter
    Ruppert
    Sassemanhausen
    Schlockerman
    Schmitt
    Schneider
    Schuster
    Schwab
    Steinbruch
    Strauch
    Wagner
    Weber
    Weiss
    Weidner
    Will
    Zimmerman
    Zode


    And here are my Mother's direct ancestor surnames:
     

    Adams
    Buck
    Bittenbender
    Clingman
    Cawley
    Cox
    Defrehn
    Dewalt
    Dieffenbauch
    Diehl
    Drach
    Dugan
    Ebbert
    Engel
    Faust
    Fryman
    Gearhart
    George
    Gilbert
    Gross
    Haeuser
    Harter
    Heller
    Henry
    Hertzel
    Hess
    Hoffman
    Hutton
    Keiper
    Keller
    Kneple
    Lawall
    Longfield
    Longenberger
    Lowe
    Mason
    Melick
    Maurer/Mowery
    Metzger
    Miller
    Naulin
    Parr
    Philips
    Price
    Prosser
    Puberbach
    Readler
    Reese
    Reichard
    Reider
    Richard
    Robinholt/Rabenold
    Schlosser
    Schober
    Schwin
    Sell
    Shuman
    Smith
    Springer
    Tanner
    Umstead
    Van Hise
    Walter
    Weaver
    Weber
    Wenner
    Young

  2. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Hayden For This Useful Post:

     C J Wyatt III (05-25-2017),  JMcB (05-25-2017),  JohnHowellsTyrfro (05-26-2017),  Mike_G (05-27-2017),  sktibo (05-25-2017)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,097
    Sex
    Location
    Taiwan
    Ethnicity
    Métis
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA
    R-Z198 (DF27)
    mtDNA
    T2B-T152C

    Canada England Scotland Germany Poland France
    The short answer is that for northern Europeans, it's a bad calculator. the Great Britain category is a mix of Scand, Irish, and probably Europe West. People often get Europe West when expecting Britain.
    It can't seem to effectively tell apart French, British, Germans, and Dutch.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Eastern European and Eastern German (Galicia, Poland) 25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, French 8.2%, Native American 1.95%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be determined with complete certainty: there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English. The rest could include Spanish, Norwegian, German, and French, but these percentages would be minuscule.

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to sktibo For This Useful Post:

     Hayden (05-25-2017),  spruithean (09-28-2017),  tomz (05-31-2019)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    727
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    I-FGC24357
    mtDNA
    H5

    United States of America Canada
    Maybe a male Pennsylvania Dutch came over without a wife and married a non-Dutch woman who he gave a Dutch family history.

    I think I have an example of that with my maternal line.

    Jack Wyatt

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to C J Wyatt III For This Useful Post:

     Hayden (05-25-2017)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    111
    Sex
    Omitted
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Pennsylvania Dutch
    Nationality
    American

    Germany Palatinate Switzerland France Wales United Kingdom United States of America
    Thank you both for your replies.

    The short answer is that for northern Europeans, it's a bad calculator. the Great Britain category is a mix of Scand, Irish, and probably Europe West. People often get Europe West when expecting Britain.
    It can't seem to effectively tell apart French, British, Germans, and Dutch.
    Interesting! I am glad to know, in a way, that it may not be as large an outlier as I thought. I have been thinking, mostly, that their calculations are simply off since I viewed the results on GedMatch with various other calculators. I think it would of been easier to reconcile in mind if my parents results were more similar. Its just odd when every known line in the family goes back to Western Germany around the Rhine, if not from nearby Switzerland, Alsace France, or to French Huguenots that had been living in Germany. All from areas that are right in the center of what they consider Europe West. But I can certainly understand that groups in the area are closely related, thus difficult to distinguish.

    Maybe a male Pennsylvania Dutch came over without a wife and married a non-Dutch woman who he gave a Dutch family history.

    I think I have an example of that with my maternal line.
    I definitely won't rule out the possibility that some of my ancestors could of married non Europe West individuals, It just seems unlikely that it would happen to a high enough frequency to make a huge contribution to the gene pool. In part because I would think my swarthy, German speaking farmers would have trouble landing English Girls. They also were all pretty much Lutheran or German Reform. My Mother's PA Dutch families moved from the heavy German area of Pa, in and around Berks county, (Where my Fathers families are all from) to a slightly more diverse area further north where they started speaking English, if not exclusively English. Then they started to get married to people regardless of origins. One of the reasons I thought their results were bizarre, at least my Dad's in comparison.

    The first thing I did when my fathers results came back, after a brief moment of bewilderment, was to make sure may dad was actually related to all the family lines in his family tree. I was able to confirm pretty far back on every major branch of his family using cousins, and distant cousin matches. So it certainly isn't the result of some recent infidelity. That would of at least simplified the matter in some respects, lol.

    Also I thought I would note that my fathers Y-DNA Haplogroup is J2b, which does help to explain the 5% Caucasus. He also has a nearly perfect match (one mutation) with a distant cousin from California that confirms their common relationship with a paternal ancestor in Oberdiebach, Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany that was born in the late 1600's.
    Last edited by Hayden; 05-25-2017 at 10:16 PM.

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Hayden For This Useful Post:

     emmental (05-25-2017),  JMcB (05-26-2017)

  9. #5
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    158
    Sex
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Y-DNA
    R-Z36>FGC6418
    mtDNA
    H5a1j

    United States of America Switzerland Netherlands Germany
    My ancestry is overwhelmingly PA Dutch. All but two of my ancestors nine generations back (colonial times) were in the US before the revolution. The other two immigrated before 1800. Only three of these (less than 1%) had British ancestry. My heritage is mostly: (1) Dutch and North German (Kempen, Dordrecht, Goch) Mennonites, who immigrated to Germantown, Philadelphia in the late 17th century with surnames such as op den Graeff, Godschalk, Rittenhouse, Custer, Hendricks and Tyson; (2) Swiss and South German Mennonites who immigrated to Montgomery, Bucks, Northampton and Berks Counties in the 18th Century with surnames such as Landis, Moyer, Fretz, Oberholtzer, Kolb, Clemmer, Clemens, Derstine, Detweiler, Funk, Hiestand, Hunsberger and Hunsicker; and (3) a smattering of Swiss and South German Lutherans and Reformed with surnames such as Dotterer, Decker, Faust and Diehl.

    All of these ancestors were born within a thirty mile radius of where I was born.

    Most of the calculators on GED Match list me as North Atlantic of some type. The original results from my FTDNA My Origins was mostly Scandinavian. I was pleased when I heard they were updating My Origins. I was disheartened to see the new results listed as 71% British Isles and 27% Southeast Europe. Can't wait to see what the next update will bring.

  10. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to emmental For This Useful Post:

     Hayden (05-25-2017),  JMcB (05-26-2017),  JohnHowellsTyrfro (05-26-2017),  tomz (05-31-2019)

  11. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,097
    Sex
    Location
    Taiwan
    Ethnicity
    Métis
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA
    R-Z198 (DF27)
    mtDNA
    T2B-T152C

    Canada England Scotland Germany Poland France
    Quote Originally Posted by Hayden View Post
    Interesting! I am glad to know, in a way, that it may not be as large an outlier as I thought. I have been thinking, mostly, that their calculations are simply off since I viewed the results on GedMatch with various other calculators. I think it would of been easier to reconcile in mind if my parents results were more similar. Its just odd when every known line in the family goes back to Western Germany around the Rhine, if not from nearby Switzerland, Alsace France, or to French Huguenots that had been living in Germany. All from areas that are right in the center of what they consider Europe West. But I can certainly understand that groups in the area are closely related, thus difficult to distinguish.
    People with Germanic ancestry rarely get reasonable AncestryDNA results. I don't think there is a company that really does a good job with that ethnic type. However, I don't think Ancestry here is entirely wrong, there is common genetic ground between all of these NW European areas, and a recent study has just shown that this common ground goes deeper than we once thought it did.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Eastern European and Eastern German (Galicia, Poland) 25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, French 8.2%, Native American 1.95%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be determined with complete certainty: there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English. The rest could include Spanish, Norwegian, German, and French, but these percentages would be minuscule.

  12. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to sktibo For This Useful Post:

     Hayden (05-25-2017),  JMcB (05-26-2017),  JohnHowellsTyrfro (05-26-2017),  Ron from PA (05-26-2017),  tomz (05-31-2019)

  13. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    111
    Sex
    Omitted
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Pennsylvania Dutch
    Nationality
    American

    Germany Palatinate Switzerland France Wales United Kingdom United States of America
    My ancestry is overwhelmingly PA Dutch. All but two of my ancestors nine generations back (colonial times) were in the US before the revolution. The other two immigrated before 1800. Only three of these (less than 1%) had British ancestry. My heritage is mostly: (1) Dutch and North German (Kempen, Dordrecht, Goch) Mennonites, who immigrated to Germantown, Philadelphia in the late 17th century with surnames such as op den Graeff, Godschalk, Rittenhouse, Custer, Hendricks and Tyson; (2) Swiss and South German Mennonites who immigrated to Montgomery, Bucks, Northampton and Berks Counties in the 18th Century with surnames such as Landis, Moyer, Fretz, Oberholtzer, Kolb, Clemmer, Clemens, Derstine, Detweiler, Funk, Hiestand, Hunsberger and Hunsicker; and (3) a smattering of Swiss and South German Lutherans and Reformed with surnames such as Dotterer, Decker, Faust and Diehl.

    All of these ancestors were born within a thirty mile radius of where I was born.

    Most of the calculators on GED Match list me as North Atlantic of some type. The original results from my FTDNA My Origins was mostly Scandinavian. I was pleased when I heard they were updating My Origins. I was disheartened to see the new results listed as 71% British Isles and 27% Southeast Europe. Can't wait to see what the next update will bring.
    Thanks for sharing, that is very interesting. My father was also born within a similarly small radius of where most his ancestors had lived, with a few small exceptions. He was born north of Germantown on the border of Berks and Lehigh, not unexpectedly, most of his ancestors are from East Berks, and West Lehigh. I have yet to find confirmation of any family members being Mennonite but a few of my ancestors did come on ships from areas of south-western Germany that were supposed Mennonite hot-spots. I would say on my fathers side their were probably more German Reformed, than Lutheran. But they shared many Union Churches so there was mixing there. (That did get me thinking that I think my mothers side was possibly more Lutheran and that could maybe explain some difference in the DNA results. Only in the aspect they may not of ran in all the same circles as I thought they had.)

    It is funny you say "a smattering of Swiss and South German Lutherans and Reformed with surnames such as Dotterer, Decker, Faust and Diehl." My Grandmother on my mother sides maiden name is Diehl and we are a Descendants of a Diehl who married a Faust. (He was also kidnapped at two by Native Americans durring the French & Indian war, but thats another story.)

    Interestingly enough, my father had FTDNA done a few years ago (mostly to get his Y-DNA Haplogroup) and I remember he also had Scandinavian as his largest group listed. I never really trusted it though. It was only after I got my results back from ancestry and they looked, at a glace to be nearly spot on, that I decided to get him retested through them hoping to get a more accurate picture.

    My results were:

    Europe 98%
    Europe West 54%
    Ireland 11%
    Great Britain 10%
    Scandinavia 8%
    Iberian Peninsula 7%
    Italy/Greece 6%
    Low Confidence Region
    Europe East 1%
    European Jewish < 1%
    West Asia 2%
    Low Confidence Region
    Caucasus 2%

    People with Germanic ancestry rarely get reasonable AncestryDNA results. I don't think there is a company that really does a good job with that ethnic type. However, I don't think Ancestry here is entirely wrong, there is common genetic ground between all of these NW European areas, and a recent study has just shown that this common ground goes deeper than we once thought it did.
    Do you by chance any links, or a name for the study yo a referring to? The wanna-be anthropologist inside me is fascinated.
    Last edited by Hayden; 05-25-2017 at 11:42 PM.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Hayden For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (05-26-2017)

  15. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    84
    Sex
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Ethnicity
    German and British
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    I- L812*
    mtDNA
    T2G

    United States of America Germany England Scotland Switzerland United States Gadsden
    My ancestry is PA colonial. I estimate 60-65% PA Dutch. Ancestry gives me 43% Britain 21% Europe West. 23andMe gives me 48.8% German with 28.8% broadly NW Euro. 23 and most Gedmatch calculators find me a mainly SW German. But several Ancestry, FTDNA, Tribecode, DNA tribes and the new PuntDNL calculator see me as British/English.

  16. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Ron from PA For This Useful Post:

     emmental (05-26-2017),  Hayden (05-26-2017),  sktibo (05-26-2017)

  17. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,097
    Sex
    Location
    Taiwan
    Ethnicity
    Métis
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA
    R-Z198 (DF27)
    mtDNA
    T2B-T152C

    Canada England Scotland Germany Poland France
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron from PA View Post
    My ancestry is PA colonial. I estimate 60-65% PA Dutch. Ancestry gives me 43% Britain 21% Europe West. 23andMe gives me 48.8% German with 28.8% broadly NW Euro. 23 and most Gedmatch calculators find me a mainly SW German. But several Ancestry, FTDNA, Tribecode, DNA tribes and the new PuntDNL calculator see me as British/English.
    more proof that 23andme is the gold standard for accuracy IMO.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Eastern European and Eastern German (Galicia, Poland) 25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, French 8.2%, Native American 1.95%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be determined with complete certainty: there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English. The rest could include Spanish, Norwegian, German, and French, but these percentages would be minuscule.

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sktibo For This Useful Post:

     Ron from PA (05-26-2017),  tomz (05-31-2019)

  19. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    111
    Sex
    Omitted
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Pennsylvania Dutch
    Nationality
    American

    Germany Palatinate Switzerland France Wales United Kingdom United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron from PA View Post
    My ancestry is PA colonial. I estimate 60-65% PA Dutch. Ancestry gives me 43% Britain 21% Europe West. 23andMe gives me 48.8% German with 28.8% broadly NW Euro. 23 and most Gedmatch calculators find me a mainly SW German. But several Ancestry, FTDNA, Tribecode, DNA tribes and the new PuntDNL calculator see me as British/English.
    Thank you, that is very insightful.

  20. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Hayden For This Useful Post:

     Ron from PA (05-26-2017),  tomz (05-31-2019)

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. 1/4 German - 97% "British Isle"?
    By FredBats in forum FTDNA
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 06-01-2019, 02:03 AM
  2. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-19-2017, 02:09 PM
  3. Black Sea flood: new estimate 9,300 BP
    By J1 DYS388=13 in forum Natural Sciences
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-11-2017, 11:19 AM
  4. Pennsylvania genealogy resource
    By Táltos in forum Genealogy
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-12-2015, 03:38 AM
  5. Replies: 22
    Last Post: 11-29-2012, 04:47 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •