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Thread: Corded Ware origin for P312?

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    Corded Ware origin for P312?

    A Corded Ware origin for P312?

    While the geographical origin of Bell Beaker pots and subtypes is still quite murky, several important developments for P312 have come about as a result of the recent Bell Beaker and Balkan papers. The most important is that Portuguese Bell Beaker people had no steppe nor L23 ancestry and could not have been responsible for the re-population of most of Western Europe. The Iberian Copper Age samples look like typical I2a and G2a which, when taken together with the northern Italian Remedello and Otzi samples, makes for a geographical continuum across the western Mediterranean.

    These developments seem to point the area of focus back to the Danube. A direct Yamnaya to Bell Beaker East scenario is unlikely, given that only one of seven Hungarian Bell Beaker samples is P312 (one R-Z2103 and one R-M269) and appear no older than Bavarian Bell Beaker samples. The oft-proposed Moravian origin seems likely for Hungarian Bell Beaker. The other Hungarian Bell Beaker samples are typical of Copper Age populations (G2a, I2a) which is odd when one considers that this should have been the area of a complete L51 movement from east to west before a P312 west to east migration. If a direct Yamnaya to Bell Beaker origin is not likely, the next logical step would be to look for L51 and P312 in cultures influenced by Yamnaya. The many Baden Culture samples from previous studies have already ruled that culture out. If we combine the two Croatian Vucedol Culture (R-Z2103 and G2a) and two Hungarian Vucedol "Period" samples (I2a2a and unresolved R-M343), it becomes clear that this group is also too diverse to be the patrilocal L23 one would expect for P312's birthplace. While somewhat distant from the Danube, the I2a Bulgarian Yamnaya sample does not bode confidence in an L23 Danubian Yamnaya population holding its dominance there for a long period of time before incorporating local Copper Age haplogroups. This is a big problem, since the time gap between the Danubian Yamnaya (~2900 BC) and extremely rapid P312 expansion (~2500 BC) is significant. Where was P312 hiding for those 400 years? In my opinion, all of these data points make the western-most periphery of Corded Ware the front-runner for finding not only the earliest R-U106, but also the predecessor of R-P312 Bell Beakers. A peripheral Corded Ware "province" in the Low Countries, Alsace or Switzerland would certainly give enough time for the diverse groups we see by about 2400 BC to form.... since P312 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > U152 > L2 was already present from France to Hungary. Yes, Corded Ware has its own problems, primarily that Corded Ware samples to date are almost entirely R1a, but an albeit late Swedish Battle Axe Culture does belong to R-U106, but again, all we are looking for is a sub-group. So again, while not the only option, a Corded Ware subgroup could be the likeliest option for L51 > L11 groups.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  3. #2
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    I've been thinking about that lately myself, but I am still holding out for the Gimbutas scenario, recalling that Heyd also derives BB from Yamnaya rather than Corded Ware.

    I get your argument about the diversity of Hungarian BB so far, but I look on the Csepel BB Z2103 as actually a pretty good clue that BB was derived from Yamnaya. There we find a known eastern Yamnaya clade in Csepel Bell Beaker and, not far away, in the same time period, an R1b-L2 BB. What do they have in common? Both are R1b-L23, both have substantial steppe autosomal dna, and both belong to the Bell Beaker culture. What are the odds of two different sources of R1b-L23 in the same steppe culture that both Heyd and Gimbutas derive from Yamnaya?

    I'm betting we just have not found the R1b-L51 in Yamnaya yet because we have not dug and tested in the right places, like the Pontic steppe, the Carpathian Basin, Mikhailovka, Kemi-Oba, etc.

    Of those non-R1b BBs from Hungary, all but one have low steppe dna and look like fairly recent recruits/clients from among the local Neolithic farmers.

    R1b-L51 coming from Corded Ware would please me to no end, so I have no objection to it, and I think what you are saying makes sense. We do have three R1bs in CW thus far. That could be a hint that more are coming. As Davidski mentioned over on his blog, patrilocality could very easily account for different y haplogroups prevailing among the different tribes of a single cultural horizon, so a set of CW tribes who were mostly R1b-L51, while other CW tribes were mostly R1a, would not greatly surprise me. But the same thing applies to Yamnaya, and I think we will see L51 Yamnaya (maybe even P312 Yamnaya), as well as R1a Yamnaya, just as we have seen I2a Yamnaya and Z2103 Yamnaya.

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    I don't think the argument for starting P312 in western Europe is very strong. Corded Ware was broader than that anyway; but the specificity of Alsace/Low Countries/Switzerland seems to me to skew about 800 miles farther west than the slim genetic evidence is telling us. We listen to a lot of other voices, and that's good, but P312 is a genetic marker and some of the voices from linguistics, pottery, copper mining and other sources may not be singing in the same choir, all of the time (or between 2900 and 2400 BC).

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    Another interesting thing possibly pointing to a Yamnaya origin is that the one non-R1b BB with substantial steppe autosomal dna, I2786, from Hungary, is I2a2a. That Yamnaya from Bulgaria is I2a2a1b1b. The other I2a BB from Hungary, I2741, one of the five non-Iberian non-R1bs with low steppe dna, is I2a1a1.
    Last edited by rms2; 05-28-2017 at 03:03 PM.

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    A peripheral Corded Ware "province" in the Low Countries, Alsace or Switzerland would certainly give enough time for the diverse groups we see by about 2400 BC to form.... since P312 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > U152 > L2 was already present from France to Hungary. Yes, Corded Ware has its own problems, primarily that Corded Ware samples to date are almost entirely R1a, but an albeit late Swedish Battle Axe Culture does belong to R-U106, but again, all we are looking for is a sub-group. So again, while not the only option, a Corded Ware subgroup could be the likeliest option for L51 > L11 groups.
    My current thinking is L51 developed in the western periphery of Yamnaya (red circle on both maps) with U106, P312, DF27, U152 already born as well as some of their subclades. Once this group reached a survivable/sustainable/defenseable size, entered Corded Ware territory up the Dniester Valley on the northern slope of he Carpathians, with a sizable/mostly P312 portion entering Moravia, with some going down the Danube into Hungary and some up the Danube into Germany. Most U106 and some P312 kept going northwest towards the Baltic Sea, Jutland and on to Scandinavia.

    One of the reasons for this thought is the present diversity of U152 subclades found on the eastern slopes the Carpathians in the red circle on bottom map (using data we do have in the absence ancient samples).

    In that circle we find U152>L2, U152>PF6658, U152>Z56, 2 samples that are U152+ L2-,Z56-Z36-, but we presently find little to no U152>ZZ45. It's almost as if ZZ45 wasn't around until the group entered Moravia. Not a lot of U152 samples in the small circled area, but a lot of diversity within the samples we presently have in that area.

    The two samples found in NE Romania that are negative for L2, Z56, and Z36 (largest subclade of ZZ45) are particularly of interest

    Possible-U152-startingpt.png

    I wonder if DF27 and U106 notice a similar pattern of subclade diversity in this area.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    look on the Csepel BB Z2103 as actually a pretty good clue that BB was derived from Yamnaya.
    We have a Hungarian BB who's Z2103 and very Yamnaya shifted ????

    Why is this not being talked about more, or is it ?

    Also why does the paper claim the only Eastern R1b BB that was proven to be P312- was the Netherlands U106 sample ?

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    This paper has some interesting information that may assist in further understanding of CW Culture

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4880197/

    Diet and Mobility in the Corded Ware of Central Europe Karl-Göran Sjögren, T. Douglas Price, and Kristian Kristiansen
    Published online 2016 May 25.

    Abstract
    Isotopic investigations of two cemetery populations from the Corded Ware Culture in southern Germany reveal new information on the dating of these graves, human diet during this period, and individual mobility. Corded Ware Culture was present across much of temperate Europe ca. 2800–2200 cal. BC and is represented by distinctive artifacts and burial practices. Corded Ware was strongly influenced by the Yamnaya Culture that arose in the steppes of eastern Europe and western Eurasia after 3000 BC, as indicated by recent aDNA research. However, the development of CW on different chronological and spatial scales has to be evaluated. Examination of the CW burials from southern Germany supports an argument for substantial human mobility in this period. Several burials from gravefields and larger samples from two large cemeteries at Lauda-Königshofen "Wöllerspfad" and at Bergheinfeld “Hühnerberg” contributed the human remains for our study of bone and tooth enamel from the Corded Ware Culture. Our results suggest that Corded Ware groups in this region at least were subsisting on a mix of plant and animal foods and were highly mobile, especially the women. We interpret this as indicating a pattern of female exogamy, involving different groups with differing economic strategies.

    (Also noted this study concluded that it is not possible to identify migrants from the steppe on the basis of Sr isotopes only.)

    The above paper is part of another study
    Re-theorising mobility and the formation of culture and language among the Corded Ware Culture in Europe
    Kristian Kristiansen, et al

    https://www.academia.edu/32293183/Re...ture_in_Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    We have a Hungarian BB who's Z2103 and very Yamnaya shifted ????

    Why is this not being talked about more, or is it ?

    Also why does the paper claim the only Eastern R1b BB that was proven to be P312- was the Netherlands U106 sample ?
    And the one non-R1b BB outside of Iberia with substantial steppe dna, also from Hungary, belongs to I2a2a, which has been found in Yamnaya. So, we have at least two BBs belonging to clades that have already been found in Yamnaya.

    Honestly, I don't think that U106 was really Bell Beaker but was rather from a later culture inserted in a tumulus that was added after the Bell Beaker tumuli there. It was later in time than the P312 BB burials and was not buried BB fashion. If you read about it in the Supplementary Info, you'll see what I mean.

    This is from page 17 of the Olalde et al Supplementary Info:

    In the Early Bronze Age, between 1900 and 1700 BCE probably, at 20 m distance, a second burial mound (Tumulus I) was raised in which two skeletons have been interred, probably in the already existing barrow (skeletons 230 and 231). Both skeletons were buried in a manner typical for the Middle Bronze Age, stretched on their backs. Both are dated between 1880 and 1650 calBCE (3440±40 BP, GrA-17225 and 3450±BP, 449 GrA-17226).
    Skeleton 230 is I4070, the U106 skeleton. 231 is a female.

    The R1b-P312 Bell Beaker skeletons are older and were buried on their sides in a crouching posture, which was the BB fashion.

    From pages 16-17:

    In essence, this dates all skeletons buried in mound II to older than approximately 1900 BCE. The male individuals were all buried on their left side, facing south. The three females were buried on the right side, facing west or north. All individuals were laid down in a crouched position typical for Beaker burials.
    Mound II, or Tumulus II, was the older mound where the P312 BBs were found. Mound or Tumulus I is the much younger mound in which the U106 was found on his back, non-BB style. II precedes I in this case.
    Last edited by rms2; 05-28-2017 at 06:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Another interesting thing possibly pointing to a Yamnaya origin is that the one non-R1b BB with substantial steppe autosomal dna, I2786, from Hungary, is I2a2a. That Yamnaya from Bulgaria is I2a2a1b1b. The other I2a BB from Hungary, I2741, one of the five non-Iberian non-R1bs with low steppe dna, is I2a1a1.
    Found this study on these Hungarian Bell Beakers, in Hungarian unfortunately : ) however it concerns skull morphology and could be very interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Google Translate
    The distribution of these two basic types can be clearly separated between men and women. While in males dolicho, hyperdolichocran, females have brachycran brain-skull dominated. In the case of the latter, there is a flat- Taurid, and the curved rectangular profile, most commonly of the short-headed human component of the alpine type
    Bearing in mind Corded Ware had dolicho skulls this looks to pose another problem for those suggesting Bell Beaker folk got their Steppe ancestry via Corded Ware women.

    Skulls.jpg
    Last edited by jdean; 05-28-2017 at 08:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    Found this study on these Hungarian Bell Beakers, in Hungarian unfortunately : ) however it concerns skull morphology and could be very interesting.



    Bearing in mind Corded Ware had dolicho skulls this looks to pose another problem for those suggesting Bell Beaker folk got their Steppe ancestry via Corded Ware women.

    Skulls.jpg
    I believe the current thinking is that BB practiced cradle boarding, which artificially flattened the back of the skull.

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