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Thread: PIE Homeland in Western Asia a plausible theory?

  1. #291
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    Another thing I was thinking is Yamnaya - the Volga steppe group who invented the adaption of the wheel to a life living and moving in cattle drawn wagons - seem likely to have gained knowledge of the wheel from Maykop not from east-central European farmers who also has the wheel by 3500BC. Indeed given the dominance of Z2103 in textbook Yamnaya and Afanasievo, it seems that lineage specifically invented the lifestyle

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  3. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    One thing that tends to be overlooked is there is no physical barrier between the Maykop heartland and the steppes. The north Caucasus just rolls into the southernmost steppes. The real barrier was environmental preferences relating to subsistence strategy. Early Maykop and indeed it’s predecessor north Caucasus farming cultures was far more advanced culture than anything on the steppe in that era. So only what they saw as an unfavourable environment prevented them moving into the steppe. I think steppe groups must have been awe struck when they encountered Maykop but Maykop and pre-Maykop north Caucasus people being farmers would not have had much interest in the Caspian steppes other than maybe metals in the urals and trade.
    Those area's are all löss soils, which is the best soil possible for cereals.

    EDIT: Although the farmers from the eastern fringe, Cucina-Tripoli, also didn't settle on the steppe. Which has just as much löss soils. Isn't it remarkable that the area shunned by farmers is now one of the breadbaskets of the area?
    Last edited by epoch; 04-15-2018 at 10:31 AM.

  4. #293
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    Epoch, different issues are explaining why farming is recent in thé Pontic Steppe.
    A parallel can be drawn with several part of Europe where EEF did have difficulties to settle, like in Scandinavia and in Northern Europe as a whole. Mountain ranges remained largely without farmers settlements.
    Climate was a clear explanation but also adaptation of cereals to Europe. It took thousands of years to obtain varieties resistant to colder temperatures, resistance to disease and so on.
    In the Pontic Steppe, soil was good but climate harsh for cereals which originated in the Levant (hot and dry).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Epoch, different issues are explaining why farming is recent in thé Pontic Steppe.
    A parallel can be drawn with several part of Europe where EEF did have difficulties to settle, like in Scandinavia and in Northern Europe as a whole. Mountain ranges remained largely without farmers settlements.
    Climate was a clear explanation but also adaptation of cereals to Europe. It took thousands of years to obtain varieties resistant to colder temperatures, resistance to disease and so on.
    In the Pontic Steppe, soil was good but climate harsh for cereals which originated in the Levant (hot and dry).
    this can not be said one hundert percent, specially not for the late neolithic when in fact the entire alpine range was a hub and center of interaction of the neolithic (the anatolian type) farmers; just for show: https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Alpine_Europe

    and while cereal cultivation needed certain requiremnts for sure most farmers societies however also had (since EN) a domesticated (mostly goats/pigs) and hunting based economy; i think the more limited expansion north west and north was due to capacities rather than climate, otherwise extensions to scotland/britian and ireland or complexes like TRB would not have existed in the first place, and innovations like the plough was more introduced with corded-ware and thus more economic and resulting into a higher mobility/flexibility (a story of success) whereas previous farmers methods were primitive and static;
    Geno2.0NextGeneration 51%SouthernEurope 19%Western&CentralEurope 13%Scandinavia 5%AsiaMinor 4%EasternEurope 4%GB&Ireland 3%Arabia myOrigins 52%WCEurope 40%SEEurope 5%BritishIsles 3%WestMiddleEast DNA.Land 49%NWEuropean 27%SEuropean 13%MedIslander 11%Sardinian myHeritage 51.8%NWEuropean 33.2%Italian 7.9%Greek 7.1%Balkan gencove 29%NItaly 19%EMed 15%NBritishIsles 12%SWEurope 10%NCEurope 9%Scandinavia 6%NEEurope GenePlazaK29 54.4%NWEurope 37.6%GreekAlbania 5.6%WAsian 2.4%SWAsia

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    this can not be said one hundert percent, specially not for the late neolithic when in fact the entire alpine range was a hub and center of interaction of the neolithic (the anatolian type) farmers;
    True, but my point was essentially to highlight the difficulties for farmers to settle. There is no doubt that Mountain ranges were settled in a secondary move, and with difficulties.
    https://www.academia.edu/977570/La_n..._de_ses_marges

    It took around 1000 years for farmers established on the river Rhône to reach Graisivaudan.

    Moreover, farmers settlements were almost exclusively in the valleys, and nearly always under 1000m high. And with low density. So a large part of Alps were left aside. A hub, yes, but highly populated, no. And numerous phases of peopoling followed by abandonnement occured Neolithic.

    And not all mountain range are the Alps. Massif Central was scarcely populated, and was no hub.

    Variation of climate was also essential to settlement: in the Alps, the late XIVth century was a colder period, and many villages in the high mountain were abandonned to favor lower settlements (as an example, the castle of Montbrun, with its habitat, in Dauphiné is not mentionned in the late XIVth century, but instead Reilhanette took its place).

    Today, Bristish Isles are under Oceanic climate, with limited variations of temperature, and Northern Europe (including a large part Scandinavia) is under Continental Climate. What is true for Britain is not always true for Northern Europe.

    Climate variation can alos explain variation in extant of Neolithic Cultures:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...wetter_climate

    Don't forget that Neolithic domesticated plants or animals were far less diverses than more recent cultures, and hence far more subject to crisis.

    Nevertheless the main stays the same: Pontic Steppe was a different ecosystem than Caucasus, and that Fertil Crescent.
    Last edited by ffoucart; 04-16-2018 at 12:56 AM.

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