Page 3 of 30 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 297

Thread: PIE Homeland in Western Asia a plausible theory?

  1. #21
    Moderator
    Posts
    1,320
    Sex
    Location
    CANZUK
    Ethnicity
    Bengali
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-Z2432
    mtDNA (M)
    A11-a*
    Y-DNA (M)
    H-Z12547*
    mtDNA (P)
    M30g

    Canada Bangladesh Jammu and Kashmir India Pakistan Sri Lanka
    Quote Originally Posted by Ral View Post
    No. The Kyrgyz R1a and N1 are very close to the haplogroups of their linguistic relatives at the Altai. Apparently modern Kirghizes have a bearing on the ancient Enisei Kirghizes described in ancient Chinese chronicles. Probably migration took place at the beginning of our era.
    Interesting, thought it just was R1a-z93 which is the clade that's connected to Indo-Iranians.


  2. #22
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    8,239

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaishvamitra View Post
    ADW
    IE has nothing to with WHGs. Also early IE populations were likely a combination of EHG and CHG
    But we have to keep in mind that EHG itself is either a combination of ANE and WHG (populations separated by the LGM divide),
    or a population within a cline on the WHG to ANE spectrum.

    So if an allele is missing from WHG but it is present in EHG, it is assumed to be from the ANE side of the divide.
    Eg. "The derived allele of the KITLG SNP rs12821256 that is associated with – and likely causal for – blond hair in Europeans4,5 is present in one hunter-gatherer from each of Samara, Motala and Ukraine (I0124, I0014 and I1763), as well as several later individuals with Steppe ancestry. Since the allele is found in populations with EHG but not WHG ancestry, it suggests that its origin is in the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) population. Consistent with this, we observe that earliest known individual with the derived allele is the ANE individual Afontova Gora 3,3 which is directly dated to 16130-15749 cal BCE (1471060 BP, MAMS-27186: apreviously unpublished date that we newly report here)."

    This mutation was lacking in the MA1 (ANE) but likely developed later on the ANE side which then admixed into WHG in eastern Europe.

    We also are not certain whether or not this blond hair mutation came with the Aryans to India since it is now absent. But perhaps such folk still existed in Panini's and Patanjali's period - "gaurah suchyacharah kapilah pingalakesa ity =enan=api abhyantardn brahmanye gunan kurvanti" https://books.google.com/books?id=z3ksBrWoZm0C&pg=PA36

    While light eye, hair color would have faded under admixture + selection pressures in the hot and sunny subcontinent, one aspect that seems to be related to the Aryans influx seems to have survived - lactose tolerance.

    The WHG from W. Europe show no evidence of lactose tolerance of the 13910 T kind, so to that extent I would agree that it not the W. European type of WHG that entered India. Nor do the CHG or Aegean Neolithic or Levantine or ANE populations show this mutation.

    So where did this mutation 13910 T develop?
    Within the EHG? If so, this would match the R1a1-Z93 influx into India.

    If not (as it was potentially present in Iran Neolithic and 3000bc SW Europe https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3376259/ http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/autosomaladna.shtml), we have to look at another contributing population.

    If the Rakhigarhi samples are missing this mutation which in present day South Asia reaches a peak in modern Haryana - IMO, the case is closed with little or no doubt that the Aryans brought it in.
    If the Rakhigarhi samples are positive, then we all go back to our drawing boards for new scenarios.
    Last edited by parasar; 06-02-2017 at 06:03 PM.

  3. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to parasar For This Useful Post:

     Kulin (06-02-2017),  palamede (06-03-2017),  redifflal (06-02-2017)

  4. #23
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    8,239

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    Interesting, thought it just was R1a-z93 which is the clade that's connected to Indo-Iranians.

    Yes that is the theory.
    If you notice the Pamir/Meru at the Tajik-Kyrgiz boundary was the axis mundi of the Aryans.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=-lJI9avHstYC&pg=PA11

    "the Ganges, the Indus, the Oxos, and the Sita, all of which they derived from a great central lake in the plateau of Pamir"
    https://books.google.com/books?id=A3UIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA279

    "In the middle of the Pamir valley is a great dragon lake (Nagahrada); from east to west it is 300 li or so, from north to south 50 li. It is situated in the midst of the great T'sung ling mountains, and is the central point of Jambudvipa ... To the west of the lake there is a large stream, which, going west, reaches so far as the eastern borders of the kingdom of Ta-mo-si-tie-ti (? Tamasthiti), and there joins the river Oxus (Fo-t'su) and flows still to the west. So on this side of the lake all the streams flow westward.
    On the east of the lake is a great stream,43 which, flowing north-east, reaches to the western frontiers of the country of Kie-sha(?Kashgar), and there joins the Si-to (Sita) river44 and flows eastward, and so all streams on the left side of the lake flow eastward ... The members of the royal family in appearance resemble the people of the Middle Country (China). They wear on their heads a square cap, and their clothes are like those of the Hu people (Uighurs). In after-ages these people fell under the power of the barbarians [Turkis from the Chinese perspective], who kept their country in their power.
    When Asoka-raja was in the world he built in this palace a stupa. Afterwards, when the king changed his residence to the north-east angle of the royal precinct, he built in this old palace a sanghdrdma for the sake of Kumaralabdha (T'ong-shiu). The towers of this building are high (and its halls) wide. There is in it a figure of Buddha of majestic appearance. The venerable Kumaralabdha was a native of Takshas"ila."
    https://books.google.com/books?id=JUcOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA297

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to parasar For This Useful Post:

     Kulin (06-02-2017)

  6. #24
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,531
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    C-F5481
    mtDNA (M)
    M8a

    Kyrgyzstan
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    The Kyrgyz were not there in transoxiana in antiquity though. They came around the 6th/7th century during the Turkic expansions, and mixed with the native inhabitants (Sogdians?) to form their ethnic group. I generally think groups shouldn't be called more IE than the other if they all speak an IE language and profess an IE descended culture, but genetically one shouldn't be biased however.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ral View Post
    No. The Kyrgyz R1a and N1 are very close to the haplogroups of their linguistic relatives at the Altai. Apparently modern Kirghizes have a bearing on the ancient Enisei Kirghizes described in ancient Chinese chronicles. Probably migration took place at the beginning of our era.
    No. Appearance of Kyrgyz people on the territory of modern Kyrgyzstan is definitely much later. At the earliest it is 9th century AD, and most likely it happened after Mongol invasions. There is a paper about this, though it's in Russian: https://www.academia.edu/29255754/%D...0%BE%D0%BC.pdf

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rozenfeld For This Useful Post:

     Kulin (06-03-2017),  Ryukendo (06-06-2017)

  8. #25
    Registered Users
    Posts
    388
    Sex
    Location
    Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by rozenfeld View Post
    No. Appearance of Kyrgyz people on the territory of modern Kyrgyzstan is definitely much later. At the earliest it is 9th century AD, and most likely it happened after Mongol invasions. There is a paper about this, though it's in Russian: https://www.academia.edu/29255754/%D...0%BE%D0%BC.pdf
    It is quite possible

  9. #26
    Registered Users
    Posts
    388
    Sex
    Location
    Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    The homeland isn't that important. The route is. The kurganists practically make the Kyrgyz more Indo-European than Persians.
    Through autosomes the Kirghiz are more Indo-European than the Iranians ? It is very interesting. I do not understand atosomes. But I'll try to make a prediction. In Europe the Finnic peoples are more Indo-European through autosomes than native Indo-European ? Am I very wrong?
    Last edited by Ral; 06-03-2017 at 02:04 AM.

  10. #27
    Registered Users
    Posts
    432
    Sex

    Greece
    Quote Originally Posted by Ral View Post
    Through autosomes the Kirghiz are more Indo-European than the Iranians ? It is very interesting. I do not understand atosomes. But I'll try to make a prediction. In Europe the Finnic peoples are more Indo-European through autosomes than native Indo-European ? Was I very wrong?
    I didn't say that. I don't believe you were wrong or not exactly wrong or no more than the mainstream theories are. On the other hand, most people here would say that you were wrong, so ask them if you value their opinions.

  11. #28
    Registered Users
    Posts
    388
    Sex
    Location
    Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    I didn't say that. I don't believe you were wrong or not exactly wrong or no more than the mainstream theories are. On the other hand, most people here would say that you were wrong, so ask them if you value their opinions.
    Its my bad english. I want to know how Finno-ugric people are close to model Indo-Europeans through autosomes.
    Last edited by Ral; 06-03-2017 at 02:25 AM.

  12. #29
    Registered Users
    Posts
    80
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    But we have to keep in mind that EHG itself is either a combination of ANE and WHG (populations separated by the LGM divide),
    or a population within a cline on the WHG to ANE spectrum.

    So if an allele is missing from WHG but it is present in EHG, it is assumed to be from the ANE side of the divide.
    Eg. "The derived allele of the KITLG SNP rs12821256 that is associated with – and likely causal for – blond hair in Europeans4,5 is present in one hunter-gatherer from each of Samara, Motala and Ukraine (I0124, I0014 and I1763), as well as several later individuals with Steppe ancestry. Since the allele is found in populations with EHG but not WHG ancestry, it suggests that its origin is in the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) population. Consistent with this, we observe that earliest known individual with the derived allele is the ANE individual Afontova Gora 3,3 which is directly dated to 16130-15749 cal BCE (1471060 BP, MAMS-27186: apreviously unpublished date that we newly report here)."

    This mutation was lacking in the MA1 (ANE) but likely developed later on the ANE side which then admixed into WHG in eastern Europe.

    We also are not certain whether or not this blond hair mutation came with the Aryans to India since it is now absent. But perhaps such folk still existed in Panini's and Patanjali's period - "gaurah suchyacharah kapilah pingalakesa ity =enan=api abhyantardn brahmanye gunan kurvanti" https://books.google.com/books?id=z3ksBrWoZm0C&pg=PA36

    While light eye, hair color would have faded under admixture + selection pressures in the hot and sunny subcontinent, one aspect that seems to be related to the Aryans influx seems to have survived - lactose tolerance.

    The WHG from W. Europe show no evidence of lactose tolerance of the 13910 T kind, so to that extent I would agree that it not the W. European type of WHG that entered India. Nor do the CHG or Aegean Neolithic or Levantine or ANE populations show this mutation.

    So where did this mutation 13910 T develop?
    Within the EHG? If so, this would match the R1a1-Z93 influx into India.

    If not (as it was potentially present in Iran Neolithic and 3000bc SW Europe https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3376259/ http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/autosomaladna.shtml), we have to look at another contributing population.

    If the Rakhigarhi samples are missing this mutation which in present day South Asia reaches a peak in modern Haryana - IMO, the case is closed with little or no doubt that the Aryans brought it in.
    If the Rakhigarhi samples are positive, then we all go back to our drawing boards for new scenarios.
    Interesting. Is there a study for this (i.e lactose tolerance in South Asia peaking in Haryana)?

  13. #30
    Junior Member
    Posts
    7
    Sex

    His PIE theory (Armenian Highlands and Western Iran) is based on his ethnocentrism and Out of Iran point of view. BMAC and Yaz archaeological cultures debunk his theory.

Page 3 of 30 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-21-2020, 09:38 AM
  2. Replies: 21
    Last Post: 05-18-2018, 05:29 PM
  3. East African DNA in western Asia..
    By evon in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 09-03-2017, 08:13 PM
  4. Replies: 196
    Last Post: 03-01-2015, 04:31 PM
  5. Replies: 14
    Last Post: 07-15-2013, 07:01 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •