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Thread: PIE Homeland in Western Asia a plausible theory?

  1. #291
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    Another thing I was thinking is Yamnaya - the Volga steppe group who invented the adaption of the wheel to a life living and moving in cattle drawn wagons - seem likely to have gained knowledge of the wheel from Maykop not from east-central European farmers who also has the wheel by 3500BC. Indeed given the dominance of Z2103 in textbook Yamnaya and Afanasievo, it seems that lineage specifically invented the lifestyle

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  3. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    One thing that tends to be overlooked is there is no physical barrier between the Maykop heartland and the steppes. The north Caucasus just rolls into the southernmost steppes. The real barrier was environmental preferences relating to subsistence strategy. Early Maykop and indeed it’s predecessor north Caucasus farming cultures was far more advanced culture than anything on the steppe in that era. So only what they saw as an unfavourable environment prevented them moving into the steppe. I think steppe groups must have been awe struck when they encountered Maykop but Maykop and pre-Maykop north Caucasus people being farmers would not have had much interest in the Caspian steppes other than maybe metals in the urals and trade.
    Those area's are all löss soils, which is the best soil possible for cereals.

    EDIT: Although the farmers from the eastern fringe, Cucina-Tripoli, also didn't settle on the steppe. Which has just as much löss soils. Isn't it remarkable that the area shunned by farmers is now one of the breadbaskets of the area?
    Last edited by epoch; 04-15-2018 at 10:31 AM.

  4. #293
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    Epoch, different issues are explaining why farming is recent in thé Pontic Steppe.
    A parallel can be drawn with several part of Europe where EEF did have difficulties to settle, like in Scandinavia and in Northern Europe as a whole. Mountain ranges remained largely without farmers settlements.
    Climate was a clear explanation but also adaptation of cereals to Europe. It took thousands of years to obtain varieties resistant to colder temperatures, resistance to disease and so on.
    In the Pontic Steppe, soil was good but climate harsh for cereals which originated in the Levant (hot and dry).

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  6. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Epoch, different issues are explaining why farming is recent in thé Pontic Steppe.
    A parallel can be drawn with several part of Europe where EEF did have difficulties to settle, like in Scandinavia and in Northern Europe as a whole. Mountain ranges remained largely without farmers settlements.
    Climate was a clear explanation but also adaptation of cereals to Europe. It took thousands of years to obtain varieties resistant to colder temperatures, resistance to disease and so on.
    In the Pontic Steppe, soil was good but climate harsh for cereals which originated in the Levant (hot and dry).
    this can not be said one hundert percent, specially not for the late neolithic when in fact the entire alpine range was a hub and center of interaction of the neolithic (the anatolian type) farmers; just for show: https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Alpine_Europe

    and while cereal cultivation needed certain requiremnts for sure most farmers societies however also had (since EN) a domesticated (mostly goats/pigs) and hunting based economy; i think the more limited expansion north west and north was due to capacities rather than climate, otherwise extensions to scotland/britian and ireland or complexes like TRB would not have existed in the first place, and innovations like the plough was more introduced with corded-ware and thus more economic and resulting into a higher mobility/flexibility (a story of success) whereas previous farmers methods were primitive and static;
    GENO2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PENINSULA 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10CEN.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GREEK/ALBANIAN 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 70.7SGERMANIC 16.3TUSCANY 9.2N.ITALY 3.8SARDINIA

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    this can not be said one hundert percent, specially not for the late neolithic when in fact the entire alpine range was a hub and center of interaction of the neolithic (the anatolian type) farmers;
    True, but my point was essentially to highlight the difficulties for farmers to settle. There is no doubt that Mountain ranges were settled in a secondary move, and with difficulties.
    https://www.academia.edu/977570/La_n..._de_ses_marges

    It took around 1000 years for farmers established on the river Rhône to reach Graisivaudan.

    Moreover, farmers settlements were almost exclusively in the valleys, and nearly always under 1000m high. And with low density. So a large part of Alps were left aside. A hub, yes, but highly populated, no. And numerous phases of peopoling followed by abandonnement occured Neolithic.

    And not all mountain range are the Alps. Massif Central was scarcely populated, and was no hub.

    Variation of climate was also essential to settlement: in the Alps, the late XIVth century was a colder period, and many villages in the high mountain were abandonned to favor lower settlements (as an example, the castle of Montbrun, with its habitat, in Dauphiné is not mentionned in the late XIVth century, but instead Reilhanette took its place).

    Today, Bristish Isles are under Oceanic climate, with limited variations of temperature, and Northern Europe (including a large part Scandinavia) is under Continental Climate. What is true for Britain is not always true for Northern Europe.

    Climate variation can alos explain variation in extant of Neolithic Cultures:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...wetter_climate

    Don't forget that Neolithic domesticated plants or animals were far less diverses than more recent cultures, and hence far more subject to crisis.

    Nevertheless the main stays the same: Pontic Steppe was a different ecosystem than Caucasus, and that Fertil Crescent.
    Last edited by ffoucart; 04-16-2018 at 12:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    ... the Kalash seem to have minimal B type blood which rises up to 30%+ among some of their neighbors and up to 40% in some northern Indian populations.

    "Hindu Kush region (Kafirs, Kalash Chitrali) ... Bernhard W. ... high frequency of blood group gene A and extremely low frequencies of B and O."
    http://rhesusnegative.net/themission...df/722-724.pdf
    Genotyping of ABO blood group system by PCR and RFLP on mummies discovered at Taklamakan desert in 1912
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8952333
    "In all the nine mummies, ABO genotype could be determined as BO type, and ABO phenotype of the eight mummies with hair specimen could be revealed as B type using absorption-elution method."

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Genotyping of ABO blood group system by PCR and RFLP on mummies discovered at Taklamakan desert in 1912
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8952333
    "In all the nine mummies, ABO genotype could be determined as BO type, and ABO phenotype of the eight mummies with hair specimen could be revealed as B type using absorption-elution method."
    "The B allele seems to be absent in both hunter-gatherers and early farmers"
    http://mathii.github.io/2017/09/21/b...ancient-europe

    So the sequence in Europe for B seems to be:
    1. Hunter Gatherer - no B
    2. Farmer - no B
    3. Early Steppe "Steppe (ST); Bronze Age individuals with “Yamnaya-like” ancestry" - also minimal B
    4. Later Bronze Steppe - some B.
    5. Finns - more B

    So what was the situation with Indian hunter gatherers - i.e. if we can figure out without any ancient DNA.
    https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitst...330?sequence=1

    "Blood group data have been obtained from 2120 aborigines in the Peninsula of India ...

    A hundred or over have been tested in each of twelve tribes: Bagdi, 107; Bhil,140; Chenchu, 100; Kanikkar, 211; Korku, 140; Maler, 235;Maria Gond, 123; Munda, 120; Oraon, 155; Paniyan, 250;Santal, 339; Toda, 200 ... Deccan are italicized ...

    The Paniyans (Aiyappan) of the Western Ghats of South Malabar contain a marked negrito element. The high percentage of group A, together with little of group B ... lowest percentage of group B for any tribe was found in Paniyans and the lowest percentage of group A among the Oraons. Both are Dravidian speaking. The Paniyans are food-hunters who are just beginning to adopt agriculture while the Oraons are primitive agriculturalists.

    Population, Number, O, A, B, AB
    Bagdi 107 29.91 24.23 35.52 10.28
    Bhil 140 18.6 23.6 41.4 16.4 Highest B
    Chenchu 100 37.0 37.0 18.0 8.0
    Kanikkar 211 51.18 18.48 29.86 Highest O
    Korku 1.10 20.0 28.6 37.9 13.6
    Maler 235 42.13 25.53 26.81 5.53
    Maria Gond 123 28.46 26.02 34.14 11.38
    Munda 120 33.33 30.00 29.17 7.50
    Oraon 155 47.10 12.90 34.84 5.16
    Paniyan 250 20.0 62.4 7.6 10.0 Highest A
    Santal 339 33.04 20.94 34.81 11.21
    Toda 200 29.5 19.5 38.0 13.0

    In blood group distribution ... Paniyans and Oraons, are diametrically opposed. The Paniyans have probably maintained their racial stock almost unmixed in their isolated mountain retreat. The Oraons have migrated from the South (Roy) within the past
    few centuries to the Chota Nagpur Plateau in eastern Central India and are at present filtering eastward into Rengal (Sarkar, ’36-’37). Although they may have received group B from other peoples on their migrations it is extremely difficult to
    account for their very low frequency of gene A. They have the next highest frequency of group 0 to the Kanikkars among the tribes thus far examined and the blood group distribution in these two tribes shows some similarity ...


    The Kanikkars belong to the extreme south and migrated within historical times from the Tinnevelly Hills, Madura District to the southern end of the Western Ghats in Travancore ... nearly 30% of group B. He attributes the high B to intermixture with plainsmen and forest guards. Group B is known to be scarce in Malabar except in the higher castes ... more frequent among the Tamils. The 30% of group B among the Kanikkars ...

    The Chenchus of the Eastern Ghats between Madras and Hyderabad are classified by physical anthropologists with the South Indian hill tribes ... These two [Paniyans and Chenchu] are the only Indian aboriginal tribes yet found with less of B than of A ...
    Some amount of B seems to have entered into the Chenchu blood through miscegenation since less was found in those inhabiting the interior of the jungle ...

    Tribes who have moved further northward appear to have obtained more of the B element than those who have remained in the South although the condition in the Kanikkars weighs against this generalization ...

    The Maler on the other hand, Dravidian speaking, now living in isolated hill tops of the Rajmahal Hills in Santal Perganas, Bihar, have retained a fairly high percentage of 0 but have almost equal doses of the agglutinogens A and B ...

    The Maria Gonds, Mundas, Bagdis, Santals, Korkus and Bhils show some features in common. All of them possess relatively high percentages of the blood groups A, B and AB, with more of B than A and with the percentage of 0 decreasing proportionally. The Mundas, Santals and Korkus speak Mundari dialects ...

    the blood group figures of the Maria Gonds are not significantly different from those of the Mundas and Santals of Bihar ... If these
    tribes are a branch of the Gond race of the Central Provinces, which is the opinion of most anthropologists then the Santal type of blood group distribution may stretch from Lower Bengal westward across Bihar and the Central Provinces and south to the Godavari River, with the distinctive Oraon and Maler islands in Bihar ...

    The Todas, whose origin and relationships are a much disputed subject ... have a blood group composition somewhat similar to those of the Bhils, Bagdis and the lower castes of North India it is very difficult to draw any conclusion from the existing blood group data ...

    The inter-relationship of some of the individual tribes have already been discussed. While it is evident that the South Indian tribes stand distinct serologically and anthropometrically from those north of the Godavari River ... the chief feature of these blood group distributions is the gradual increase in the frequency of the gene B (9) from the south, north to Bihar and thence westward to the Nimar District in the west of the Central Provinces ...

    There is also an increase in the value of gene A (p) on the east side of India from south to north (except for the Oraons lately from farther South) but not from Bihar to the western Central Provinces ...

    The Khasis (Macfarlane,'41) stand apart and show the lowest percentage of B (18.5%) while their high percentage of A (35%) is a characteristic of the Central Chinese, the Tibetans and of the tribes dwelling in the Assam mountains ...

    Mundari-speaking peoples entered India well supplied with both the blood groups A and B. The higher percentage of blood group B, now found in some of the Mundari speaking tribes may well be due to intermixture with the aborigines rich in group B who were already present in India ...

    More light on this problem would be obtained from a study of the Nicobarese blood groups. A blood group survey of the Andaman and Nicobar Islands should be done as early as possible before the aborigines die out ...

    SUMMARY

    Only the Paniyans and Chenchus have less of group B than of group A ...

    The Bhils and Korkus of the Central Provinces have very high percentages of groups B and AB.

    It is suggested that there may have been two original racial stocks one resembling the Paniyan or Maler, with little of B, and the other resembling the Oraons, with little of A and plenty of B ...

    The Mundari-speaking peoples, whose language possesses a common substratum with the Mon-Khmer dialects, resemble the Non-Khmer speaking tribes of South-east Asia in having a significant amount of both the agglutinogens A and B. The Khasi data show a somewhat lesser content of B and more of the Tibetan and Central Chinese type of distribution."

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