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Thread: Bell Beaker R1b-L21

  1. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    YFull currently lists the tmrca of L21 as 4300 ybp, which, subtracting 1950 as "the present", yields a date of 2350 BC. YFull gives L21 a "formed" date of 4500 ybp, which yields a date of 2550 BC. So, based on this, I guess it's reasonable to estimate that L21 arose sometime during the period 2550 - 2350 BC. Of course, YFull could be wrong, but that's what we have to work with.

    In terms of ancient dna, the oldest rc-dated L21+ skeleton is that of the famous "Companion", who is believed to be the son of the famous Amesbury Archer. His remains are dated to 2470-2140 BC. The mid point of that range of dates is 2305 BC. The second oldest rc-dated L21+ skeleton is another one from Amesbury Down, I2457, dated to 2480-2031, with a mid point of 2256 BC.

    Notice that both of those were already derived for L21, and they are, thus far, the oldest L21+ skeletons we know of with actual rc dates.

    So, if YFull is right about the age of L21, and it arose sometime between 2550 and 2350 BC, and the very oldest L21 yet found in Britain or Ireland dates to between 2480 and 2140 BC, then how likely is it that L21 was born in either place?

    Recall that L21 certainly appears to be a Beaker phenomenon. Olalde et al found no R1b of any kind in Britain prior to the arrival of the Beaker people.

    If L21 was born in Britain, then those two skeletons would have to have been among the very first L21+ men.

    Beaker dates to about 2400 BC in Britain and about 2300 BC in Ireland. If L21 actually arose in 2550 BC or very close to that date (perhaps even earlier), then there is no way it was born in Britain. If it arose closer to 2350 BC, then it could have been born in Britain, but that would have had to have happened very near to the initial arrival of Beaker there.

    IMHO, L21 was born on the Continent and was brought to Britain by the first Beaker immigrants/invaders.
    The immediately post-beaker bronze age L21 in southern France would be hard (though I suppose not impossible) to explain if L21 first occurred in Britain.

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  3. #612
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    Because no else seems interested we have our first DF27 Bronze Age in France. 1900 B.C., Alsace, and he is DF27>Z225. Interestingly there is another DF27>Z225, 1900 B.C., Iberia. Same lineage. YTree has Z225 at 2031 B.C., and YFull has it dated to 2480 B.C.
    Last edited by Webb; 06-05-2020 at 11:12 PM.

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    If the Devon 1900 B,C. Bell Beaker is in fact DF27>DF83, then my first theory that some DF27 arrived to Britain and Ireland just after L21 and were regulated to the less hospitable areas of the Islands. Maybe they were only interested in resources.

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    DF27 does appear more common along the English Channel part of England.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    If the Devon 1900 B,C. Bell Beaker is in fact DF27>DF83, then my first theory that some DF27 arrived to Britain and Ireland just after L21 and were regulated to the less hospitable areas of the Islands. Maybe they were only interested in resources.
    As you know, DF83 is my maternal grandfather's subclade of DF27, and the surname hotspot is in Devon.

    Gist map.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I brought that up because I encountered a guy on a y-dna Facebook group recently who insists that L21 arose in Britain. Of course, this is a guy who thinks R1b got to western Europe via an original migration of Solutreans from North America. Yes, you read that right.
    Wow, no matter how long I stay away from the forum, this subject keeps getting debated (sort of). I don't see how L21 arose in Britain because of the identified SNPs and lineage of my L21 haplogroup that I have presumed came from some kind of L21 Bell Beaker migration southward out of Central Europe instead of from the British Isles. Yfull says my branch under L21/Z251/FG11986 formed maybe 4100 years ago, consistent with what I proposed many years ago when I got my Full Genomes results back (a very early test - as FGC11986 was found in my results). When it's proven that L21 arose in Britain I will buy everybody a beer (including the Solutrean guy).
    R1b-M343> L754> L389> P297> M269> L23> L51> P310> L151> P312> Z290> L21> DF13> Z39589> Z251> S11556> S9294> BY3229> BY3231> BY43237> FGC11986> FGC11984> Z18106> FGC11991> L583> FGC11963

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    Quote Originally Posted by seferhabahir View Post
    Wow, no matter how long I stay away from the forum, this subject keeps getting debated (sort of). I don't see how L21 arose in Britain because of the identified SNPs and lineage of my L21 haplogroup that I have presumed came from some kind of L21 Bell Beaker migration southward out of Central Europe instead of from the British Isles. Yfull says my branch under L21/Z251/FG11986 formed maybe 4100 years ago, consistent with what I proposed many years ago when I got my Full Genomes results back (a very early test - as FGC11986 was found in my results). When it's proven that L21 arose in Britain I will buy everybody a beer (including the Solutrean guy).
    Yes, I was hoping Olalde et al would get the Amesbury Archer's genome and settle the matter, since his dental isotopes show he was born and raised on the Continent, probably in the Alpine region of south Germany or in Switzerland. They weren't able to, but they did succeed with "the Companion", buried just three meters away, believed to be the Archer's son because of an anomaly in the bones of their feet that the two men share, which proves at the very least they were close relatives.

    The Companion is L21+.

    To me that's enough, but probably nothing will ever be enough for some people.

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    Maybe I'm dreaming, but I hope the paper on Dutch Single Grave rumored to be coming will have at least one continental Single Grave L21+ in it.

    That would be sweet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Maybe I'm dreaming, but I hope the paper on Dutch Single Grave rumored to be coming will have at least one continental Single Grave L21+ in it.

    That would be sweet.
    Second to L21 I’m really hoping for a Z290 sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Second to L21 I’m really hoping for a Z290 sample.
    At least one of each would be nice.

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