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Thread: An East Asian Origin for Y-Haplogroup N?

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    Question An East Asian Origin for Y-Haplogroup N?

    Here is something interesting from Dienekes: Origins and dispersals of Y-chromosome haplogroup N

    Quote Originally Posted by Hong Shi et al

    Abstract

    Genetic Evidence of an East Asian Origin and Paleolithic Northward Migration of Y-chromosome Haplogroup N

    Hong Shi et al.

    The Y-chromosome haplogroup N-M231 (Hg N) is distributed widely in eastern and central Asia, Siberia, as well as in eastern and northern Europe. Previous studies suggested a counterclockwise prehistoric migration of Hg N from eastern Asia to eastern and northern Europe. However, the root of this Y chromosome lineage and its detailed dispersal pattern across eastern Asia are still unclear. We analyzed haplogroup profiles and phylogeographic patterns of 1,570 Hg N individuals from 20,826 males in 359 populations across Eurasia. We first genotyped 6,371 males from 169 populations in China and Cambodia, and generated data of 360 Hg N individuals, and then combined published data on 1,210 Hg N individuals from Japanese, Southeast Asian, Siberian, European and Central Asian populations. The results showed that the sub-haplogroups of Hg N have a distinct geographical distribution. The highest Y-STR diversity of the ancestral Hg N sub-haplogroups was observed in the southern part of mainland East Asia, and further phylogeographic analyses supports an origin of Hg N in southern China. Combined with previous data, we propose that the early northward dispersal of Hg N started from southern China about 21 thousand years ago (kya), expanding into northern China 1218 kya, and reaching further north to Siberia about 1214 kya before a population expansion and westward migration into Central Asia and eastern/northern Europe around 8.010.0 kya. This northward migration of Hg N likewise coincides with retreating ice sheets after the Last Glacial Maximum (2218 kya) in mainland East Asia.
    Of course, as Dienekes points out, the age estimates are likely to be inflated x3.

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    Not a new idea, but it makes perfect sense to me, yes.

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    The difficulty with that paper is that it does not detect, and therefore does not attempt to explain, the two oldest branches of N1, P189.2 and L732. The very oldest branch, P189.2, appears to be isolated to Europe; the L732 branch has so far only been proven in Europe, although a distant match in South Korea suggests that L732 exists there as well.

    The paper seems to assume that the oldest N and N1 are in Asia, and hence does not even bother looking elsewhere.

    Experts in our field often express shock and disbelief at the SNP results I describe, but wishing will not make them go away. N1-P189.2 tests negative for PAGES00056, a SNP previously thought to be synonymous with LLY22g (the N1 haplogroup).

    Please understand that I am not suggesting a specific answer (as to how N1-P189.2 is exclusively European). I am instead expressing my frustration that I am the only one who even dares to ask the question.
    Last edited by lgmayka; 07-09-2013 at 11:19 PM.

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    I haven't gone over the report with a fine-toothed comb, but from what I can see they did not test for P189.2 or L732. They tested for M231, LLY22g, M128, P43, and M46. Of the stuff they tested for, the older SNPs were more prevalent in the southeast.

    Has anyone ever really tested a southeast Chinese population for P189.2 or L732? How frequent are those two SNPs in Europe?

    Honestly, I just posted this stuff for grins. N is not my main interest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    The difficulty with that paper is that it does not detect, and therefore does not attempt to explain, the two oldest branches of N1, P189.2 and L732. The very oldest branch, P189.2, appears to be isolated to Europe; the L732 branch has so far only been proven in Europe, although a distant match in South Korea suggests that L732 exists there as well.

    The paper seems to assume that the oldest N and N1 are in Asia, and hence does not even bother looking elsewhere.

    Experts in our field often express shock and disbelief at the SNP results I describe, but wishing will not make them go away. N1-P189.2 tests negative for PAGES00056, a SNP previously thought to be synonymous with LLY22g (the N1 haplogroup).

    Please understand that I am not suggesting a specific answer (as to how N1-P189.2 is exclusively European). I am instead expressing my frustration that I am the only one who even dares to ask the question.
    Probably it is the same for R1a-M420* overwhelmingly European (I raised the problem) and not Asian. About these haplogroups we are speaking of thousands of years, and how many movements have people done in so long time! Someone lived in Europe also in those times: Italy 45,000YBP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    Probably it is the same for R1a-M420* overwhelmingly European (I raised the problem) and not Asian. About these haplogroups we are speaking of thousands of years, and how many movements have people done in so long time! Someone lived in Europe also in those times: Italy 45,000YBP.
    This post is only marginally related to the topic. This isn't the first time you have steered discussion towards Italian genetics on this forum. Please talk about your ideas concerning Italy's genetic provenance about YDNA R1a in an appropriate thread (see: - http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...R1a-originated) and not here.

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    Just a note for the interested that lgmayka posted specifically about European N1* clades marked by L732 and P189.2 here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...732-and-P189-2

    However I don't see estimated dates for them. It is a very interesting question. I don't think an early branch in Europe makes any difference to the conclusion about the origin of N itself. But we could be looking at a clue to the masculine counterpart to the Central Asian mtDNA that seems to have arrived in Europe with the first pottery (from the Lake Baikal region c. 7000 BC), as distinct from the N1c1 (M46/Page70/Tat, P105) which appears correlated with Uralic speakers. Those who developed Proto-Uralic may have arrived in the Volga-Oka region from Asia about 5000 BC, though some put the arrival later.
    Last edited by Jean M; 07-10-2013 at 09:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    as distinct from the N1c1 (M46/Page70/Tat, P105) which appears correlated with Uralic speakers.
    If I understand it correctly, something different was stated here:
    Its distribution is not fully correlated with the spread of Uralic languages. Turkic-speaking ethnic groups in South Siberia have high N1c-Tat presence and STR variance, while the N1c-L550 subgroup largely occurs among non-Uralic-speaking European populations. Only the European N1c-Tat (xL550) subgroup can be linked to the spread of Finno-Ugric languages from the Kama-Urals area ~6,000 years ago. The subgroup N1c-L550 cannot be considered Finno-Ugric origin and its carriers might have been assimilated by Indo-European groups, resulting in their spread across Europe in historical times with Vikings and Balto-Slavs.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09...s-eurasia.html
    Last edited by Private_user; 07-10-2013 at 04:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Has anyone ever really tested a southeast Chinese population for P189.2 or L732?
    Probably not. The significance of P189.2 and L732 was discovered too recently (last year) to appear in peer-reviewed academic publications yet--even if there were lively academic interest, which there apparently is not.
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    How frequent are those two SNPs in Europe?
    Not frequent but detectible, if one knows where to look. The most common known 7-marker haplotype for N1-P189.2 is

    DYS393 = 14, DYS390 = 25, DYS19 = 14, DYS391 = 10, DYS385 = 11-16, DYS392 = 14

    This finds 8 matches in YHRD:
    Code:
    2 of 215	Novi Sad, Serbia [Serbian]
    2 of 220	West Croatia, Croatia [Croatian]
    1 of 180	Ljubljana, Slovenia [Slovenian]
    1 of 220	East Croatia, Croatia [Croatian]
    1 of 629	Eastern Slovakia, Slovakia [Slovakian]
    1 of 31 	Doboj-Banja Luka-Bjeljina, Bosnia and Herzegowina [Bosnian]
    There are a few other, singleton haplotypes found in Italy, France, etc.
    Last edited by lgmayka; 07-10-2013 at 10:51 PM.

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