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Thread: U152+ L2+ Z49+ Z142+. "Country of Origin" Percentages for England and France

  1. #1
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    U152+ L2+ Z49+ Z142+. "Country of Origin" Percentages for England and France

    I'm Z142+ and I've noticed a significant number of Z142+ folks are of French origin on the FTDNA U152 project http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/

    I wondered how the percentage of English and French origin for Z142+ compared to percentages at the U152, L2 and Z49 levels.

    Using the filters on the most recent version of the "Haplotype Data for R1b-P312xL21" spreadsheet https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1...Haplotypes.zip revealed the following:

    Of the records where a country of origin is listed, "England and "France" combined is currently 35% of U152+, 39% of L2+, 62% of Z49+, and 85% of Z142+.

    Detailed below:

    -Of the 862 U152 records that list a country of origin, 186 list England (22%) and 115 list France (13%)
    -Of the 467 L2+ records that list a country of origin, 112 list England (24%) and 72 list France (15%)
    -Of the 41 Z49+ records that list a country of origin, 13 list England (32%) and 11 list France (27%)
    -Of the 20 Z142+ records that list a country of origin, 8 list England (40%) and 9 list France (45%)

    I know the Z142+ and Z49+ are statistically small samples, but if those percentages hold up over time; that's a significant jump for French origin.

    Forgive me if this is old news.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 07-10-2013 at 04:31 AM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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  3. #2
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    Looked at the latest version of the "Haplotype Data for R1b-P312xL21" spreadsheet and noticed a significant difference between Z49+ Z142+ and Z49+ Z142- when it comes to English ancestry.

    England makes up 38% of the Z142+ group (11 of 29 samples) and 7% of the Z142- group (1 of 15 samples).

    Also Germany is not currently represented in the Z142+ group, but makes up 20% of Z142- (3 of 15 samples)

    Granted these are still small sample sizes, but with the British Isles bias of the FTDNA customers, it's interesting that the Z49+ Z142- group (on FTDNA's U152 project) currently only has 1 member from England.



    Pie charts show raw numbers vice percentages e.g. Z142+ has 11 samples from England while Z142- has 1.

    Z4142+_vs_Z149-.png
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 11-17-2013 at 03:47 AM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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    It is a suspicion of mine that the Z49+Z142+ group and Z367+L20+ group originated within close proximity to one another, likely Eastern France. From there they would have move into England together. Z49+Z142- seems to be made up of a single subclade as per GoNL data and some unpublished sequences. The Z49+Z142- group is present in the Netherlands, so it may have traveled with Z367+Z34+ and their origins a little close to the Rhine.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  7. #4
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    Richard, I've read your thoughts on another thread where you say
    While the La Tene Celts seem to have brought a specific subclade of U152 to Britain called L20, there is reason to suspect that L2(xL20) arrived during the Early Bronze Age.
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ull=1#post5882

    Is your current thought that Z142+ is a La Tene arrival or would it be more of a early Bronze Age group?

    Also I would be curious to hear more about your reasoning for the arrival times of both groups.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 11-17-2013 at 03:07 PM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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  8. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Z49+Z142- seems to be made up of a single subclade as per GoNL data and some unpublished sequences.
    My cousin, kit 64890 of Polish ancestry, is Z49+ Z142- . Do you consider his haplotype to belong to this hypothesized subclade?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    My cousin, kit 64890 of Polish ancestry, is Z49+ Z142- . Do you consider his haplotype to belong to this hypothesized subclade?
    lgmayka, unfortunately, they have not published STR information as of yet.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  10. #7
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    The Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ group is getting bigger.

    On the FTDNA R-U152 site I now see 15 kits that are positive for Z150/Z12222. Just a few months ago there were only 2.

    I'm assuming I will join this group when my BigY results come back, but maybe my kit will be the first of a new 3rd branch of Z142+.

    With my very rare 395s1a and 395s1b STR values (11-15), I wouldn't be surprised.

    Except for my kit, no one I'm aware of that is Z49+ has anything but modal values (15-16) for this slow mutating STR.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 03-19-2014 at 04:51 PM. Reason: incorrect # of z150+ total
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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  11. #8
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    This is the part I am interested in. Richard Roccca did a great job with the new sub menus!

    If I had paid the $495 this is the group I would be placed in:

    249822 L2+ Z49+ Z142+ L562- Edward Leopold Mitchell b1893 London d1969 Chicago
    7181 L2+ Z49+ Z142+ L562- Z150? Thomas Davenport - 1615-1685 of Dorchester, MA
    1370 L2+ Z49+ Z142+ L562- L594- John Graves, b.c. 1665, England/Virginia
    1620 L2+ Z49+ Z142+ L562- L594- Not given

    Who is 1620?

  12. #9
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    FYI 1370 + 1620 have already got their BigY results back. They are 2 of the 15 Z150s.

    My assumption is that 1620 is also Graves surname.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 03-19-2014 at 04:51 PM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

  13. #10
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    Correction to my earlier post. There are 15 z142+ z150/z12222+ folks in the ftdna u152 project...but many of these are related and/or have the same surname.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

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