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Thread: Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots have common paternal roots! (new study)

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    As always it is my pleasure. Okay I will give my opinion on which haplogroups came from where and I would like to state before that my opinion is not necessarily the absolute truth but this is what I believe. I think the Neolithic or the oldest subclades in Cyprus are E-M84, E-L791 and E-Z830. Then Philia culture which would be from Anatolia (Cilicia to be exact) associated with the Red Ware to be the speakers of the Eteo-Cypriot language which I believe (not everyone) to be related to the Hurrians and the Kura-Araxes expansion to have brought a good portion of the J2a in particular J2a-M319, J2a-L210, J2a-Z6065, J2a-Z7671 and some of the J2a-Z500 (which needs further inspection), along with G-M406 and G-L293 (Z6553 on Yfull), T-L208, L-M317 and J1-Z1828. From the Levant would have came J2b-M205, all J1-P58, E-V12>CTS693, E-V22 (originally Egyptian), R1b-V88 and remainder of J2a except the few that came with the Greeks. Deeper subclades of the ones I mentioned for the Philia Culture can also be Levantine in origin, I think ancient dna and ngs testing will help clarify this, regardless these are the subclades that I believe came from Anatolia and the Levant. For Greek be it Mycenaeans and the later migrations they brought E-V13, R1b-Z2103, R1a, I-P37, J2b-M241, the remainder of G and the rest of J2a, with haplogroups such J2a-Z500 (some it all depends on a deeper look), J2a-S25258, and J2a-Z387 (this needs a deeper look, could also be earlier).
    What make you think that most R1b-Z2103 is from Balkans/Greece?

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    What make you think that most R1b-Z2103 is from Balkans/Greece?
    It matches the frequency of E-V13 in both Greek and Turkish Cypriots.

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  4. #53
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    @Principe
    Many thanks again for the comprehensive overview of findings. Generally I tend to agree with your interpretations. The only comments I have are:
    1. If indeed Neolithic Cypriots belonged exclusively to haplogroup E1b1b, then this would mean that the Cypriot Neolithic is primarily an offshoot of the Levantine (primarily South?) Neolithic. Although this is supported by archaeological evidence, I would expect some influx also from Anatolian Neolithic farmers, given their close proximity to the island. Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if Neolithic Cypriots also carried some Neolithic Anatolian G2a subclades.

    2. Archaeological evidence suggests that the Philia culture very closely resembled the culture of EBA Western Anatolia, rather than Southern Anatolia. I totally agree that these Anatolian settlers were the first to introduce J2a in Cyprus and yes it is very likely that they have something to do with the Cypro-Minoan script and the Eteo-Cypriot language. Unless this was directly introduced from Crete, which is also another possible explanation. Minoan Linear A is closely related but precedes the Cypro-Minoan script of BA Cyprus. Unfortunately the availability of good resolution (at least 17 marker) STR data from Crete is very limited in the literature. Low resolution SNP data are available however (also included in the Heraclides et al paper).

    3. My third point is actually a question.. The Phoenicians had a substantial impact on the history of Cyprus, with clear evidence of settlements in the SE coast (modern day Larnaca) and stretching inland as central as the suburbs of modern day Nicosia, as well as westernmost up to modern day Limassol. What haplogroup subclades would you expect these to have introduced? Unless, they were so similar to contemporary (Iron age) Cypriots, that it would be too difficult to disentangle..

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  6. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amathusian View Post
    @Principe
    Many thanks again for the comprehensive overview of findings. Generally I tend to agree with your interpretations. The only comments I have are:
    1. If indeed Neolithic Cypriots belonged exclusively to haplogroup E1b1b, then this would mean that the Cypriot Neolithic is primarily an offshoot of the Levantine (primarily South?) Neolithic. Although this is supported by archaeological evidence, I would expect some influx also from Anatolian Neolithic farmers, given their close proximity to the island. Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if Neolithic Cypriots also carried some Neolithic Anatolian G2a subclades.

    2. Archaeological evidence suggests that the Philia culture very closely resembled the culture of EBA Western Anatolia, rather than Southern Anatolia. I totally agree that these Anatolian settlers were the first to introduce J2a in Cyprus and yes it is very likely that they have something to do with the Cypro-Minoan script and the Eteo-Cypriot language. Unless this was directly introduced from Crete, which is also another possible explanation. Minoan Linear A is closely related but precedes the Cypro-Minoan script of BA Cyprus. Unfortunately the availability of good resolution (at least 17 marker) STR data from Crete is very limited in the literature. Low resolution SNP data are available however (also included in the Heraclides et al paper).

    3. My third point is actually a question.. The Phoenicians had a substantial impact on the history of Cyprus, with clear evidence of settlements in the SE coast (modern day Larnaca) and stretching inland as central as the suburbs of modern day Nicosia, as well as westernmost up to modern day Limassol. What haplogroup subclades would you expect these to have introduced? Unless, they were so similar to contemporary (Iron age) Cypriots, that it would be too difficult to disentangle..
    To your 3 points I will answer them as best as I can.

    1. It could be possible that some G2a lineages can be neolithic in origin, G-PF3147 is actually the Neolithic Anatolian farmer subclade, Otzi belongs to a downstream of it and G-Z724, the thing is we don't know if these farmers were also marine navigators.

    2. I think more archaeology needs to be done with these connection, and I would think Crete is very similar to Cypriot Y lines, they just have more J2a.

    3. I think after seeing the Bronze Age Sidon samples J2b-M205 and J1-P58 related lineages would probably be Phoenician in origin, I also think some J2a subclades were brought into Cyprus by the Phoenicians, J2a is the most common Y line of Lebanon today, and probably E-V22 because Egypt controlled the Levant before the Phoenicians started, E-V22 could have been a line that was absorbed in Bronze Age.

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    In Voskarides [2016] J2b-M205 is absent in Larnaka and very rare in Ammochostos while both had 'Phoenicians' . It peaks in North and West.

    E-M123 is higher in the North, quite high inside & South and lower in East, West.

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    Good observation about J2b-M205. Larnaca (ancient Kition) was surely a Phoenician hotspot. If J2b-M205 peaks in North and West maybe it has an Anatolian or even Cretan origin. NW Cyprus had a strong interaction with Crete based on the archaeological record. By the way, modern Cretans have higher frequencies of R1b than Cypriots and much higher frequencies of R1a. My understanding of this is that they have had more interactions with mainland Greece, which is much closer to them. I wonder however whether this interaction was ancient or more recent (i.e. Slavic source of Cretan R1a). Interestingly, Cretans have lower frequencies of E-V13 than Cypriots, a marker generally recognised as indicating ancient Greek admixture in regions surrounding Greece (Italy, south of France, as well as Cyprus in the new study).

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  12. #57
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    i think e-m123 was present in cyprus before the mycenean greeks came
    and helenized the island


    p.s

    and indid most of the chances the greeks who colonized cyprus were e-v13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amathusian View Post
    Good observation about J2b-M205. Larnaca (ancient Kition) was surely a Phoenician hotspot. If J2b-M205 peaks in North and West maybe it has an Anatolian or even Cretan origin. NW Cyprus had a strong interaction with Crete based on the archaeological record. By the way, modern Cretans have higher frequencies of R1b than Cypriots and much higher frequencies of R1a. My understanding of this is that they have had more interactions with mainland Greece, which is much closer to them. I wonder however whether this interaction was ancient or more recent (i.e. Slavic source of Cretan R1a). Interestingly, Cretans have lower frequencies of E-V13 than Cypriots, a marker generally recognised as indicating ancient Greek admixture in regions surrounding Greece (Italy, south of France, as well as Cyprus in the new study).
    Remember that J2b-M205 was found in 4 ancient samples including Bronze Age Sidon (One of the main Phoenician cities), people move around, J2b-M205 in Cyprus is very likely I would even say 95% to be Levantine in origin. Maybe that has to do with Greek groups that came to Crete and Cyprus?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Remember that J2b-M205 was found in 4 ancient samples including Bronze Age Sidon (One of the main Phoenician cities), people move around, J2b-M205 in Cyprus is very likely I would even say 95% to be Levantine in origin. Maybe that has to do with Greek groups that came to Crete and Cyprus?
    Maybe, let's see.. The long awaited ancient Aegean paper from the Reich lab should be approaching and will give us many answers! I hope it contains a good number of Mycenaean samples, not just a few royalties..

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  18. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amathusian View Post
    Good observation about J2b-M205. Larnaca (ancient Kition) was surely a Phoenician hotspot. If J2b-M205 peaks in North and West maybe it has an Anatolian or even Cretan origin. NW Cyprus had a strong interaction with Crete based on the archaeological record. By the way, modern Cretans have higher frequencies of R1b than Cypriots and much higher frequencies of R1a. My understanding of this is that they have had more interactions with mainland Greece, which is much closer to them. I wonder however whether this interaction was ancient or more recent (i.e. Slavic source of Cretan R1a). Interestingly, Cretans have lower frequencies of E-V13 than Cypriots, a marker generally recognised as indicating ancient Greek admixture in regions surrounding Greece (Italy, south of France, as well as Cyprus in the new study).
    Some of the R1b in Crete can be Italic (Venetian) though. In Cyprus too, some regions have 1.5-2% R1b-U152, for example. Some of it can be from Anatolia.

    'Lasithi Plataeu' in Crete has high R1a & R1b but there is a recent founder effect probably and the population is small (2,387).

    I think E-V13 can be high in some big Cretan cities like Chania or maybe Heraklion but I don't think we have reliable data.
    I don't know where it originates and how and when it expanded in Balkans, though. Basically what haplogroups expanded with Cardial Neolithic?

    I don't know about R1a. In Cyprus the 'Slavic' subclades peak in Paphos where J2a-M67 and J2a-M92 also seem to peak while J2b-M205 is also high there.

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