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Thread: Cornish and Breton ancestry and DNA

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    Can I ask you a question about Breton names please? My paternal ancestry seems to have been in the Welsh Borders, Herefordshire back to 1699, where I believe there was a fairly significant Breton presence post-conquest. The surname Howells (Not Howell or Powell) appears to be concentrated in West Wales, the Welsh Border Counties and unexpectedly in Norfolk where I believe there was also a Breton presence. I understand there is or was a Breton equivalent of the name Howel/Hywel - "Hoel"? I believe there was a King of Brittany of that name?
    I appear to share paternal descent with the Cecils (William Cecil 1st Baron Burghley etc) although it seems my branch pre-dates the Burghley branch. One (unproved) version of the Cecil origins is with Robert Sitsyllt a follower on Robert Fitzhamon in the conquest of Glamorgan about 1090. Is there a Breton or Norman name with similarities to Sitsyllt, Cecil or Saissil please? If the answer is no then at least I will have some idea. We are all U106 Z326 which I appreciate may not be that representative of Breton ancestry. We are looking at estimated dates for the SNPs at the moment. Would appreciate your thoughts. John
    Y-R1b-U106 exists in Brittany spite it's not a major lineage and could be from Vikings or Franks - TJ MORGAN and Rhys MORGAN in their book about welsh names seem thinking the forms in Seisyll/Seisyllt/Sitsyltt preceded the forms Cecil and that the spelling of the name now spelled Cecil (family of Burghly) was close to the above names, and the family cradle would have been in Allterynnis/Alltyrynys, near Abergavenny, Gwent - they cites in the borders forms like Seithlid, Seyisyllt, Seisil, Seisill ap Saisall, Seisild, Syshelth... among others in old acts. In Brittany I don't see any surname coming close to Sesyltt/Cecil (a confusion with the romance name based on the root meaning "blind"?)

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     JohnHowellsTyrfro (08-19-2017)

  3. #82
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    United Kingdom Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by moesan View Post
    Y-R1b-U106 exists in Brittany spite it's not a major lineage and could be from Vikings or Franks - TJ MORGAN and Rhys MORGAN in their book about welsh names seem thinking the forms in Seisyll/Seisyllt/Sitsyltt preceded the forms Cecil and that the spelling of the name now spelled Cecil (family of Burghly) was close to the above names, and the family cradle would have been in Allterynnis/Alltyrynys, near Abergavenny, Gwent - they cites in the borders forms like Seithlid, Seyisyllt, Seisil, Seisill ap Saisall, Seisild, Syshelth... among others in old acts. In Brittany I don't see any surname coming close to Sesyltt/Cecil (a confusion with the romance name based on the root meaning "blind"?)
    Thank you for that I appreciate it. My paternal ancestors lived about 10 miles from Alt Yr Ynys. My branch pre-dates the Burghley branch, common ancestor about 1300 AD (estimate).
    Yes you are right there was a theory that the origin of the Cecil name could have been from the Roman Caecilius. I've also seen it suggested it could relate to Sextus (sixth).
    I think a Norman ( and allies) origin is quite possible but I can't relate the surname Cecil to that origin. Hywel or Howell (forename ) could have a Breton influence from Hoel. Howells - (Howell/Hywel's son) is quite concentrated in this area.
    Many thanks again for the reply. John

    Y ancestry.jpg

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  5. #83
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    QUOTE=firemonkey;250361]My father's result- Jtest

    Hi
    I'm breton (NW Brittany )

    same test (Jtest)
    # Population Percent
    1 ATLANTIC 30.87
    2 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 24.69
    3 WEST_MED 12.15
    4 EAST_EURO 10.07
    5 SOUTH_BALTIC 8.93
    6 WEST_ASIAN 5.50
    7 ASHKENAZI 4.77
    8 EAST_MED 3.01


    Finished reading population data. 78 populations found.
    14 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    ORACLE4
    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Cornish @ 5.211161
    2 IE @ 6.268583
    3 Scottish @ 6.814747
    4 Orcadian @ 6.860622
    5 English @ 7.900768
    6 NL @ 8.880779
    7 West_&_Central_German @ 9.744564
    8 FR @ 10.721975
    9 DK @ 11.292246
    10 NO @ 13.623881
    11 South_&_Central_Swedish @ 14.838320
    12 AT @ 16.195004
    13 ES @ 17.776211
    14 North_Swedish @ 18.287462
    15 PT @ 18.412764
    16 French_Basque @ 21.431704
    17 HU @ 22.176613
    18 North_Italian @ 23.160421
    19 Serbian @ 23.963236
    20 RO @ 26.453062

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% FR +50% Scottish @ 4.660706


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% IE +25% PT +25% Scottish @ 4.197095


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 ES + IE + Scottish + Scottish @ 3.740904
    2 ES + Scottish + Scottish + Scottish @ 3.791321
    3 ES + IE + IE + Scottish @ 3.804118
    4 ES + Orcadian + Scottish + Scottish @ 3.946230
    5 ES + IE + IE + IE @ 4.001101
    6 ES + IE + Orcadian + Scottish @ 4.002844
    7 French_Basque + IE + IE + West_&_Central_German @ 4.081863
    8 French_Basque + IE + Scottish + West_&_Central_German @ 4.090067
    9 IE + PT + Scottish + Scottish @ 4.090827
    10 PT + Scottish + Scottish + Scottish @ 4.092997
    11 French_Basque + IE + Orcadian + West_&_Central_German @ 4.097557
    12 French_Basque + Orcadian + Scottish + West_&_Central_German @ 4.117821
    13 Cornish + ES + Scottish + Scottish @ 4.147396
    14 ES + IE + IE + Orcadian @ 4.159946
    15 French_Basque + Orcadian + Orcadian + West_&_Central_German @ 4.161339
    16 English + French_Basque + Scottish + West_&_Central_German @ 4.177003
    17 IE + IE + PT + Scottish @ 4.197095
    18 French_Basque + Scottish + Scottish + West_&_Central_German @ 4.202916
    19 English + French_Basque + IE + West_&_Central_German @ 4.213748
    20 Cornish + ES + IE + Scottish @ 4.218012

    ORACLE
    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Cornish 4.62
    2 IE 5.58
    3 Scottish 6.1
    4 Orcadian 6.12
    5 English 6.95
    6 NL 7.84
    7 West_&_Central_German 8.59
    8 FR 9.43
    9 DK 9.92
    10 NO 12.02
    11 South_&_Central_Swedish 13.14
    12 AT 14.2
    13 ES 15.69
    14 PT 16.2
    15 North_Swedish 16.26
    16 French_Basque 19.09
    17 HU 19.51
    18 North_Italian 20.02
    19 Serbian 20.7
    20 RO 22.87

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 75.1% Scottish + 24.9% ES @ 3.38
    2 78% IE + 22% ES @ 3.54
    3 90.7% Scottish + 9.3% Sardinian @ 3.57
    4 83% Scottish + 17% Tuscan @ 3.64
    5 76.4% Scottish + 23.6% PT @ 3.65
    6 64% Scottish + 36% FR @ 3.65
    7 79.5% Orcadian + 20.5% French_Basque @ 3.77
    8 82.1% IE + 17.9% French_Basque @ 3.81
    9 80.5% Scottish + 19.5% North_Italian @ 3.81
    10 79.6% IE + 20.4% PT @ 3.84
    11 88% Cornish + 12% French_Basque @ 3.85
    12 68.3% IE + 31.7% FR @ 3.9
    13 85.8% IE + 14.2% Tuscan @ 3.93
    14 83.6% IE + 16.4% North_Italian @ 4.03
    15 76.9% Orcadian + 23.1% ES @ 4.09
    16 96.4% Cornish + 3.6% GE @ 4.15
    17 88.2% Scottish + 11.8% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 4.18
    18 91.4% IE + 8.6% AJ @ 4.23
    19 96.5% Cornish + 3.5% Armenian @ 4.25
    20 93% IE + 7% Sardinian @ 4.27
    Last edited by Trelvern; 08-10-2018 at 11:22 AM.

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  7. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trelvern View Post
    QUOTE=firemonkey;250361]My father's result- Jtest

    Hi
    I'm breton (NW Brittany )

    same test (Jtest)
    # Population Percent
    1 ATLANTIC 30.87
    2 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 24.69
    3 WEST_MED 12.15
    4 EAST_EURO 10.07
    5 SOUTH_BALTIC 8.93
    6 WEST_ASIAN 5.50
    7 ASHKENAZI 4.77
    8 EAST_MED 3.01


    Finished reading population data. 78 populations found.
    14 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    ORACLE4
    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Cornish @ 5.211161
    2 IE @ 6.268583
    3 Scottish @ 6.814747
    4 Orcadian @ 6.860622
    5 English @ 7.900768
    6 NL @ 8.880779
    7 West_&_Central_German @ 9.744564
    8 FR @ 10.721975
    9 DK @ 11.292246
    10 NO @ 13.623881
    11 South_&_Central_Swedish @ 14.838320
    12 AT @ 16.195004
    13 ES @ 17.776211
    14 North_Swedish @ 18.287462
    15 PT @ 18.412764
    16 French_Basque @ 21.431704
    17 HU @ 22.176613
    18 North_Italian @ 23.160421
    19 Serbian @ 23.963236
    20 RO @ 26.453062

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% FR +50% Scottish @ 4.660706


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% IE +25% PT +25% Scottish @ 4.197095


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 ES + IE + Scottish + Scottish @ 3.740904
    2 ES + Scottish + Scottish + Scottish @ 3.791321
    3 ES + IE + IE + Scottish @ 3.804118
    4 ES + Orcadian + Scottish + Scottish @ 3.946230
    5 ES + IE + IE + IE @ 4.001101
    6 ES + IE + Orcadian + Scottish @ 4.002844
    7 French_Basque + IE + IE + West_&_Central_German @ 4.081863
    8 French_Basque + IE + Scottish + West_&_Central_German @ 4.090067
    9 IE + PT + Scottish + Scottish @ 4.090827
    10 PT + Scottish + Scottish + Scottish @ 4.092997
    11 French_Basque + IE + Orcadian + West_&_Central_German @ 4.097557
    12 French_Basque + Orcadian + Scottish + West_&_Central_German @ 4.117821
    13 Cornish + ES + Scottish + Scottish @ 4.147396
    14 ES + IE + IE + Orcadian @ 4.159946
    15 French_Basque + Orcadian + Orcadian + West_&_Central_German @ 4.161339
    16 English + French_Basque + Scottish + West_&_Central_German @ 4.177003
    17 IE + IE + PT + Scottish @ 4.197095
    18 French_Basque + Scottish + Scottish + West_&_Central_German @ 4.202916
    19 English + French_Basque + IE + West_&_Central_German @ 4.213748
    20 Cornish + ES + IE + Scottish @ 4.218012

    ORACLE
    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Cornish 4.62
    2 IE 5.58
    3 Scottish 6.1
    4 Orcadian 6.12
    5 English 6.95
    6 NL 7.84
    7 West_&_Central_German 8.59
    8 FR 9.43
    9 DK 9.92
    10 NO 12.02
    11 South_&_Central_Swedish 13.14
    12 AT 14.2
    13 ES 15.69
    14 PT 16.2
    15 North_Swedish 16.26
    16 French_Basque 19.09
    17 HU 19.51
    18 North_Italian 20.02
    19 Serbian 20.7
    20 RO 22.87

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 75.1% Scottish + 24.9% ES @ 3.38
    2 78% IE + 22% ES @ 3.54
    3 90.7% Scottish + 9.3% Sardinian @ 3.57
    4 83% Scottish + 17% Tuscan @ 3.64
    5 76.4% Scottish + 23.6% PT @ 3.65
    6 64% Scottish + 36% FR @ 3.65
    7 79.5% Orcadian + 20.5% French_Basque @ 3.77
    8 82.1% IE + 17.9% French_Basque @ 3.81
    9 80.5% Scottish + 19.5% North_Italian @ 3.81
    10 79.6% IE + 20.4% PT @ 3.84
    11 88% Cornish + 12% French_Basque @ 3.85
    12 68.3% IE + 31.7% FR @ 3.9
    13 85.8% IE + 14.2% Tuscan @ 3.93
    14 83.6% IE + 16.4% North_Italian @ 4.03
    15 76.9% Orcadian + 23.1% ES @ 4.09
    16 96.4% Cornish + 3.6% GE @ 4.15
    17 88.2% Scottish + 11.8% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 4.18
    18 91.4% IE + 8.6% AJ @ 4.23
    19 96.5% Cornish + 3.5% Armenian @ 4.25
    20 93% IE + 7% Sardinian @ 4.27
    Thanks for that. I get Cornish 4.72 as my closest distance there, so similar to you. Where have you tested and what were your results there?
    Last edited by JonikW; 08-10-2018 at 11:49 AM.
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    South Wales Border-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    Cumbria-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales, 18th century. Mother's Y line (Wales): R1b L21

  8. #85
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    "Thanks for that. I get Cornish 4.72 as my closest distance there, so similar to you. Where have you tested and what were your results there?"

    I tested from MyHeritage.
    It's not easy here :the law is very restrictive.
    the results were so weird! (29,9 scandinavian,29,6 W british isles,27 iberian!) I guess iberian includes France!
    So i transfered my file to DnaLand and Gedmatch far more relevant and accurate.

    ancestry-report.jpg
    Last edited by Trelvern; 08-11-2018 at 07:41 AM.

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  10. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trelvern View Post
    "Thanks for that. I get Cornish 4.72 as my closest distance there, so similar to you. Where have you tested and what were your results there?"

    I tested from MyHeritage.
    It's not easy here :the law is very restrictive.
    the results were so weird! (29,9 scandinavian,29,6 W british isles,27 iberian!) I guess iberian includes France!
    So i transfered my file to DnaLand and Gedmatch far more relevant and accurate.

    ancestry-report.jpg
    Thanks for posting Lucasz's map. It certainly seems to show what a Breton might expect. Did any of your family speak the language in recent generations? I hope youngsters still want to learn it today.
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    South Wales Border-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    Cumbria-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales, 18th century. Mother's Y line (Wales): R1b L21

  11. #87
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    J2b1a-T16311C!

    Cornwall New Zealand
    As a comparison my Jtest

    Population
    SOUTH_BALTIC 9.93
    EAST_EURO 11.27
    NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 27.28
    ATLANTIC 31.31
    WEST_MED 13.96
    ASHKENAZI 0.34
    EAST_MED 3.18
    WEST_ASIAN 2.74

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Cornish @ 5.241220
    2 IE @ 6.037948
    3 Orcadian @ 6.815713
    4 Scottish @ 7.216062
    5 English @ 7.330487
    6 NL @ 8.504045
    7 West_&_Central_German @ 9.835683
    8 DK @ 10.145460
    9 FR @ 11.714994
    10 NO @ 12.296010

    The map is not too dissimilar to mine

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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Thanks for posting Lucasz's map. It certainly seems to show what a Breton might expect. Did any of your family speak the language in recent generations? I hope youngsters still want to learn it today.
    Yes my parents were breton speakers
    But I don't!
    Nowadays this language is a dying one despite all efforts.

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  15. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by timberwolf View Post
    As a comparison my Jtest

    Population
    SOUTH_BALTIC 9.93
    EAST_EURO 11.27
    NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 27.28
    ATLANTIC 31.31
    WEST_MED 13.96
    ASHKENAZI 0.34
    EAST_MED 3.18
    WEST_ASIAN 2.74

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Cornish @ 5.241220
    2 IE @ 6.037948
    3 Orcadian @ 6.815713
    4 Scottish @ 7.216062
    5 English @ 7.330487
    6 NL @ 8.504045
    7 West_&_Central_German @ 9.835683
    8 DK @ 10.145460
    9 FR @ 11.714994
    10 NO @ 12.296010

    The map is not too dissimilar to mine
    Have you tested K16?


    # Population Percent
    1 Neolithic 33.4
    2 Steppe 26.02
    3 NorthEastEuropean 21.89
    4 Caucasian 17.85
    5 NorthAfrican 0.39
    6 Indian 0.34
    7 Amerindian 0.11

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 French (France) 4.03
    2 English (Kent) 5.59
    3 French (WestFrance) 6.31
    4 English (Cornwall) 6.41
    5 Irish (Connacht) 6.46
    6 Scottish (Grampian) 6.61
    7 Irish (Cork_Kerry) 6.67
    8 Irish (Leinster) 6.82
    9 German (Germany) 6.91
    10 Irish (Ulster) 6.93
    11 English (England) 7.01
    12 Scottish (Highlands) 7.03
    13 Scottish (Dumfries_Galloway) 7.41
    14 Scottish (Fife) 7.45
    15 French (NorthwestFrance) 7.58
    16 Irish (Munster) 7.62
    17 Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) 7.63
    18 Scottish (Borders) 7.79
    19 French (EastFrance) 7.97
    20 Scottish (Argyll_bute)

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  17. #90
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    British people seems have less Early Farmers than continental (Neolithics wiped out at bronze age by Bell Beakers)
    Is it true?
    Tested K16 or K23 or something like that?
    Last edited by Trelvern; 08-11-2018 at 02:36 PM.

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