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Thread: The theory of Gaulish colonists in early or Iron Age Britain

  1. #1
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    The theory of Gaulish colonists in early or Iron Age Britain

    Those who are nearest to the Gauls are also like them, either from the permanent influence of original descent, or, because in countries which run out so far to meet each other, climate has produced similar physical qualities. But a general survey inclines me to believe that the Gauls established themselves in an island so near to them. Their religious belief may be traced in the strongly-marked British superstition. The language differs but little; there is the same boldness in challenging danger, and, when it is near, the same timidity in shrinking from it.
    Those who are nearest to the Gauls resemble them, whether from the persistence of heredity, or whether, since the lands stretch out opposite each other, the climate has given the same character to the individuals. Forming a general judgment, however, it is credible that the Gauls seized the neighboring island. One sees here their sacred rites and their religious beliefs; even the speech does not differ much; there is the same boldness in seeking dangers, and the same shrinking from meeting them when they are present.
    Attachment 35124

    This relates to this article: https://www.livescience.com/66020-ga...ave-found.html

    Of which I am a bit unsure of the validity. It claims that this warrior was a Gaul in some sections. I find the idea of a Gaulish connection to early Britain very appealing, but do you think it was true? It's one of my favorite theories anyhow. What do you folks think about this article?

    Referenced:

    https://books.google.ca/books?id=ddY...ritain&f=false

    http://exploringcelticciv.web.unc.edu/tacitus-agricola/

    http://www.elfinspell.com/PrimarySou...usBritons.html
    Last edited by sktibo; 12-04-2019 at 06:31 AM. Reason: Added another quote about Gauls and their similarities to the Britons, it looks like a slightly different translation
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, Eastern German 12.5%, Eastern European (Likely Polish possibly including Romanian) 12.5%, French 7.81%, Native American (Saulteaux and Assiniboine) 2.34%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be traced with certainty. With certainty, there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English.

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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    Attachment 35124

    This relates to this article: https://www.livescience.com/66020-ga...ave-found.html

    Of which I am a bit unsure of the validity. It claims that this warrior was a Gaul in some sections. I find the idea of a Gaulish connection to early Britain very appealing, but do you think it was true? It's one of my favorite theories anyhow. What do you folks think about this article?

    Referenced:

    https://books.google.ca/books?id=ddY...ritain&f=false

    http://exploringcelticciv.web.unc.edu/tacitus-agricola/
    I'm confident there was a great deal of movement both ways, based on many things, from art and artefacts to burials (including on a micro level the chariot burials of northern England that parallel the Parisii of Gaul). First, there's the druidic religion of course, with Britain reportedly being the centre for study for those who wanted to be initiated.
    I highlighted these passages too during a rereading of Caesar recently:
    Diviciacus of the Suessiones, was according to that author "the most powerful king in Gaul, who controlled not only a large part of the Belgic country, but Britain".
    Then, after a rebellion in that area of Gaul, the culprits 'have now realized what a calamity they have brought upon their country, and have fled to Britain".
    Then there's "Commius, whom [Caesar] had made king of the Atrebates after the conquest of that tribe – a man of whose courage, judgement, and loyalty he had a high opinion, and who was greatly respected in Britain. He instructed Commius to visit as many [British] tribes as possible, to urge them to entrust themselves to the protection of Rome, and to announce his impending arrival". The last reference is interesting for its potential linguistic implications too. But really I'm just scratching the surface here regarding British/Gaulish links.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,250 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I'm confident there was a great deal of movement both ways, based on many things, from art and artefacts to burials (including on a micro level the chariot burials of northern England that parallel the Parisii of Gaul). First, there's the druidic religion of course, with Britain reportedly being the centre for study for those who wanted to be initiated.
    I highlighted these passages too during a rereading of Caesar recently:
    Diviciacus of the Suessiones, was according to that author "the most powerful king in Gaul, who controlled not only a large part of the Belgic country, but Britain".
    Then, after a rebellion in that area of Gaul, the culprits 'have now realized what a calamity they have brought upon their country, and have fled to Britain".
    Then there's "Commius, whom [Caesar] had made king of the Atrebates after the conquest of that tribe – a man of whose courage, judgement, and loyalty he had a high opinion, and who was greatly respected in Britain. He instructed Commius to visit as many [British] tribes as possible, to urge them to entrust themselves to the protection of Rome, and to announce his impending arrival". The last reference is interesting for its potential linguistic implications too. But really I'm just scratching the surface here regarding British/Gaulish links.
    Thank you so much! I didn't realize there was so much more to this connection. I started thinking about it again because I've been trying to plot those Iron Age Britons vs the Gaels and I couldn't help but notice how "Continental" the IA Britons (Except 0160) seem to look on some plots. I wonder if that could possibly be due to these Gaulish connections?
    Last edited by sktibo; 12-03-2019 at 09:36 PM.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, Eastern German 12.5%, Eastern European (Likely Polish possibly including Romanian) 12.5%, French 7.81%, Native American (Saulteaux and Assiniboine) 2.34%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be traced with certainty. With certainty, there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    Thank you so much! I didn't realize there was so much more to this connection. I started thinking about it again because I've been trying to plot those Iron Age Britons vs the Gaels and I couldn't help but notice how "Continental" the IA Britons (Except 0160) seem to look on some plots. I wonder if that could possibly be due to these Gaulish connections?
    I think you could be on to something.
    Sorry I didn't actually address your first question. It's definitely possible to almost pinpoint the origin of some artefacts (a rule that holds good for the later Germanic migrations too) so I see no reason to doubt the experts who've examined the warrior here. Pleased to see there will be an exhibit. I'll try to check it out. I visited the Fishbourne villa mentioned in the article recently and particularly loved the still in situ mosaic floors from the period immediately after the Claudian conquest.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,250 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    Thank you so much! I didn't realize there was so much more to this connection. I started thinking about it again because I've been trying to plot those Iron Age Britons vs the Gaels and I couldn't help but notice how "Continental" the IA Britons (Except 0160) seem to look on some plots. I wonder if that could possibly be due to these Gaulish connections?
    When they were close.to the Belgae than they tend to be high in Hallstatt....is this the case?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I think you could be on to something.
    Sorry I didn't actually address your first question. It's definitely possible to almost pinpoint the origin of some artefacts (a rule that holds good for the later Germanic migrations too) so I see no reason to doubt the experts who've examined the warrior here. Pleased to see there will be an exhibit. I'll try to check it out. I visited the Fishbourne villa mentioned in the article recently and particularly loved the still in situ mosaic floors from the period immediately after the Claudian conquest.
    If you get to the exhibit could you get some pictures for us please?

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    When they were close.to the Belgae than they tend to be high in Hallstatt....is this the case?
    No idea Finn, but maybe I should check the G25 Hallstatt samples on a t-SNE chart relative to these to see if it's close. I've still got a lot of practice and experimenting to go on that front though. I personally doubt the Hallstatt/La Tene theories of Celtic origin but I'm also always open to being wrong. Things can change with additional data.
    Last edited by sktibo; 12-03-2019 at 10:20 PM.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, Eastern German 12.5%, Eastern European (Likely Polish possibly including Romanian) 12.5%, French 7.81%, Native American (Saulteaux and Assiniboine) 2.34%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be traced with certainty. With certainty, there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English.

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    Hallstatt (DA111 and DA112)

    Attachment 35129

    The distance looks too great to conclude that these Hallstatt samples have a part in this. Interesting that the pattern with the three Britons separated from the Gaels by the Saxons remains consistent however.
    I think I'll try some Urnfield samples and see what happens with those.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, Eastern German 12.5%, Eastern European (Likely Polish possibly including Romanian) 12.5%, French 7.81%, Native American (Saulteaux and Assiniboine) 2.34%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be traced with certainty. With certainty, there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English.

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    DEU EBA Unetice and Rathlin

    Attachment 35130

    Well, a disclaimer as always, I'm an amateur who is new to t-SNE with R. Please understand that the ideas or observations I put forth here are not any kind of solid evidence or theories that I swear by. I make observations and I comment on those observations.

    That out of the way, these Unetice samples look like more likely candidates than the Hallstatt samples for continental influence in the Insular genetic type. Of course, once I added Rathlin, that throws a wrench in things as Rathlin 1 and 3 appear on either end of the Saxon range.
    The yellow dots are all the modern French samples, I thought it would be appropriate to highlight those considering the theme of this thread. It doesn't look to me like the Iron Age Britons are similar to the French, considering the only French samples that overlap with their positions are on the extremities, and are probably the Breton samples. I was hoping for a bit more of an obvious Gaulish connection than I found.

    One less disappointing observation however is that the two Rathlin samples are centered between the Icelandic Gaels and the most continental leaning Britons. Perhaps the Gaels could have diverged in one direction and the Britons in another? Maybe samples like Rathlin (and perhaps coincidentally, the Saxons) represent the genetic position that both the Gaels and the Britons could have originated from?
    Two of the Britons seem to be shifted towards Eastern Europe rather than France and the Gaels appear to have drifted in their own unique direction. These Unetice samples look like they're circling the Insular area and it's difficult to make anything out of them as they have such a wide range.
    Last edited by sktibo; 12-04-2019 at 04:48 AM.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, Eastern German 12.5%, Eastern European (Likely Polish possibly including Romanian) 12.5%, French 7.81%, Native American (Saulteaux and Assiniboine) 2.34%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be traced with certainty. With certainty, there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English.

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  17. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    DEU EBA Unetice and Rathlin

    Attachment 35130

    Well, a disclaimer as always, I'm an amateur who is new to t-SNE with R. Please understand that the ideas or observations I put forth here are not any kind of solid evidence or theories that I swear by. I make observations and I comment on those observations.

    That out of the way, these Unetice samples look like more likely candidates than the Hallstatt samples for continental influence in the Insular genetic type. Of course, once I added Rathlin, that throws a wrench in things as Rathlin 1 and 3 appear on either end of the Saxon range.
    The yellow dots are all the modern French samples, I thought it would be appropriate to highlight those considering the theme of this thread. It doesn't look to me like the Iron Age Britons are similar to the French, considering the only French samples that overlap with their positions are on the extremities, and are probably the Breton samples. I was hoping for a bit more of an obvious Gaulish connection than I found.

    One less disappointing observation however is that the two Rathlin samples are centered between the Icelandic Gaels and the most continental leaning Britons. Perhaps the Gaels could have diverged in one direction and the Britons in another? Maybe samples like Rathlin (and perhaps coincidentally, the Saxons) represent the genetic position that both the Gaels and the Britons could have originated from?
    Two of the Britons seem to be shifted towards Eastern Europe rather than France and the Gaels appear to have drifted in their own unique direction. These Unetice samples look like they're circling the Insular area and it's difficult to make anything out of them as they have such a wide range.
    I wish someone like alan or Dubhthach would comment on this but I was thinking with the more extreme positions of the Gaels there is a possibility of drift involved. Granted we just don't have enough samples and I wouldn't be surprised if there is not more variety in plot positions with more samples. I'm wondering though what effect things like the clan-type systems had on Ireland because they definitely were a factor in the types of ydna in certain areas.

    Also regarding the Gauls they might have had more impact on areas like Cornwall and the more southern areas of Britain and not so much the more northern parts of England. Although JonikW did mention the possible connection between chariots in Northern England and Gaul.
    Last edited by Jessie; 12-04-2019 at 05:39 AM.

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  19. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
    I wish someone like alan or Dubhthach would comment on this but I was thinking with the more extreme positions of the Gaels there is a possibility of drift involved. Granted we just don't have enough samples and I wouldn't be surprised if there is not more variety in plot positions with more samples. I'm wondering though what effect things like the clan-type systems had on Ireland because they definitely were a factor in the types of ydna in certain areas.

    Also regarding the Gauls they might have had more impact on areas like Cornwall and the more southern areas of Britain and not so much the more northern parts of England. Although JonikW did mention the possible connection between chariots in Northern England and Gaul.
    I think I remember it being alan from who I first heard the idea that Britain in the Iron Age was somewhat "colonized" along the coastal areas by Gauls, and there being a difference between the Gaulish colonists of the coasts and the Britons of the interior of the Island. I think it was Tacitus and Strabo who were cited as writing this. That's all going off memory. I tried to find translations of writings of these two that verify this but was unable to.
    I'd really like to see if alan has anything more to say on this topic, and if that was indeed him that I got these ideas from.

    I think more ancient samples would definitely show more variety on the plots.
    Last edited by sktibo; 12-04-2019 at 06:25 AM.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, Eastern German 12.5%, Eastern European (Likely Polish possibly including Romanian) 12.5%, French 7.81%, Native American (Saulteaux and Assiniboine) 2.34%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be traced with certainty. With certainty, there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English.

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