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Thread: Cornish and Breton ancestry and DNA

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amerijoe View Post
    John, I can concur with the difficulty researching the Jones line. My gg grandmother, Dinah Jones is listed on a marriage document as having been born in Ireland 1841 with William Jones being said father. Have not been able to turn up anything on Dinah at Roots Ireland or any docs from anywhere. I only get a small % of Welsh but might be just enough to add some validity as a result of the following. Origin of Jones name points to Wales. Could she be a descendant of the Welsh immigration to Ireland in the 1700's? Seem to be getting a history education as a byproduct of my research. Many questions few answers but interesting none the less. Joe
    I have the same problem in Wales as someone whose Mother was a Jones from the Valleys. Cornish surnames look more varied, although I was surprised to see that some Welsh names such as Morgan are also Cornish. This website is excellent for checking whether a surname in your tree might be Cornish.
    http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kernow/
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    South Wales Border-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    Cumbria-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales, 18th century. Mother's Y line (Wales): R-L21 L371

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  3. #22
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    Looking at Dad's results, above, I notice that he never gets both French and Cornish assigned in the same group (unlike English+French, or Orcadian+French or NL+French). Perhaps, at least for JTest, Dad's "Cornish" is closer to Breton?
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112 (S17075-)

    Y-cousin: 6DRIF-23 (DF19>>Z17112+, S17075+)

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I have never heard of this John but would like to know more. Do you have any sources? Thanks
    "The Bretons and Normans of England..." :-
    "The third group of Bretons was not dominated by a figure such as Alan of
    Richmond-Penthièvre or Ralph of Gael. It was composed of men whose homelands lay in the
    north-east Breton seigneuries of Dol-Combour and Fougères. Among the most prominent
    were William fitz Baderon, nephew of Wihenoc of La Boussac, lord of Monmouth,23 and
    Ralph I of Fougères (d.1124). Ralph had married a daughter of Richard de Clare and Rohesia
    Giffard,24 a marriage that connected him to the extensive kin of the Conqueror, from whose
    half-brother Robert of Mortain he held land in Normandy.25 The size of Ralph's English
    holdings was, however, small, and there is nothing beyond his appearance in Domesday
    Book to connect him with England during his lifetime.26 Although the individual holdings of
    this group were often quite small, their number and their concentration in the south-west of
    England are alike noteworthy. Apart from the Bretons of Herefordshire and Gloucestershire,
    whose lands were grouped around those of William fitz Baderon, there were several Breton
    landholders in Devonshire, some of whose lands were to form the later honour of Plympton,27
    elevated into the earldom of Devon in 1141 by the Empress. The undertenants of Robert of
    Mortain, who held vast estates in Cornwall,28 Devon, Dorset and Somerset, included several
    Bretons.29"

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...TEmOE14ifLazGg

    There were " Normans" in Herefordshire pre-conquest and they even built a castle to defend against the Welsh.
    "Further after 1066 in England and relevantly the Welsh Marches, Bretons formed a substantial part of the conquering Norman elite..."


    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...5wDR8Q6AEILjAB





    Hereford - The French Town:-

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...SMe-xeuY-qLs1A

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amerijoe View Post
    John, I can concur with the difficulty researching the Jones line. My gg grandmother, Dinah Jones is listed on a marriage document as having been born in Ireland 1841 with William Jones being said father. Have not been able to turn up anything on Dinah at Roots Ireland or any docs from anywhere. I only get a small % of Welsh but might be just enough to add some validity as a result of the following. Origin of Jones name points to Wales. Could she be a descendant of the Welsh immigration to Ireland in the 1700's? Seem to be getting a history education as a byproduct of my research. Many questions few answers but interesting none the less. Joe
    Have you tried the Family Finder test Joe? It might give a clue as to origins, like mine is probably North Wales which would support my Living DNA percentage, but still very difficult to tie down the paper trail. I've found quite a few through Family Finder and it's not that expensive. It can be frustrating but it's a great motivator to acquire knowledge. John

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  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    Have you tried the Family Finder test Joe? It might give a clue as to origins, like mine is probably North Wales which would support my Living DNA percentage, but still very difficult to tie down the paper trail. I've found quite a few through Family Finder and it's not that expensive. It can be frustrating but it's a great motivator to acquire knowledge. John
    John, I'm in just about every accessible database in the world. Most of my matches have B&I origins, but too distant for any kind off verification. I receive requests from matches every once in a while with a long list of surnames to prevue, always to no avail. B&I definitely fits my DNA, most tests place it in the high 90's, which indicates both sides have abundant B&I. With only the maternal side and no paternal, FF will not perform to it's optimum design capabilities.

    At present, waiting for Yfull to finish it's analysis of my latest BigY match. The gentlemen in question is a match within the last 15 generations which is a lot better than the previous match at 3700 years, getting closer. What is really interesting is he lists his residence as England and his surname indicates Scot origin. My ydna is definitely an outlier for the British Isles presently with an unknown origin and a lot of my ydna matches are spread throughout the Middle East. This match should bring me back to the Isles. Joe

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Does anyone with Cornish ancestry feel this has or hasn't been reflected in any of the DNA tests on the market? I have at least two Cornish surnames in my mainly South Welsh borders and surrounding counties tree in the past few generations (still researching) and have Cornish 4.72 and English 5.26 as my top populations on the Gedmatch Jtest, and the following results on the Living DNA test in cautious mode:
    South Wales border-related ancestry 86.8%
    Cornwall 8%
    Cumbria-related ancestry 5.2%
    Incidentally, my 23andme speculative results put me at British and Irish 66.4%, which is lower than my Welsh mother had.
    As a related population, I also wonder if any Bretons have tested and what their results show.
    If recall correctly there was one poster here who reported around 50% Cornish with LivingDNA, and from memory this matched up well with their known ancestry. Basically, I think this individual had a Cornish mother and a father from elsewhere, or something like that.

    You're right though, with LivingDNA, Cornwall is one of those regions that crops up a lot but usually at low percentages. If people are getting lower Cornish percentages than expected through LivingDNA, it probably just means that their ancestry is not matching up that closely with the POBI reference population. POBI had 81 Cornish samples, which looks fairly good, probably a lot better than any of the other Cornish populations used by other companies. But, what may be happening for some people is that they do have known ancestry from Cornwall, but for whatever reason, it may not match that closely with the POBI reference population, and their ancestry gets assigned somewhere else.

    I can't speak for the other companies but I would have thought that LivingDNA should be the most accurate, becasue they do have a good dataset, although it is far from perfect.

    On edit: I have just checked and the poster was Timberwolf with 51.4% Cornish and he is half Cornish.
    Last edited by avalon; 06-23-2017 at 08:54 PM.

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  13. #27
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    Hi

    I have tested extensively over the past 2-3 years. I have tested at Ancestry, 23 and me, Big Y and full MtDNA at FTDNA, uploaded to Gedmatch and MyHeritage as well as LDNA

    I am Cornish on my fathers side. On my paper trail, I can trace back about five generations with confidence, and speculate back another generation. LDNA gives me 51.7 in complete mode and 53.2 in cautious. So for me. LDNA as an Autosomal test, mainly because of its regional focus to Great Britain and Ireland, is the most accurate of the tests.

    I judge their test simply on my Cornish percentage and it looks right, also I feel their cautious mode makes the most sense, East Anglia 23.1 and South Central England 11.8 corresponds in most parts to my paper trail.

    On Ancestry I scored 44% Ireland 28% Europe West but only 2% GB, with 23andme 75.2 B & I and 99 % NW European. FTDNA tells me I am Western and Central European. MyHeritage results are too ridiculous to post, lets just say according to them I should be living in a villa somewhere in Spain.

    Results are only as good as the samples and data available, and even in the testing I have done, there is a significant difference in estimation of my ancestry.
    Last edited by timberwolf; 06-24-2017 at 11:46 PM.

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  15. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by timberwolf View Post
    Hi

    I have tested extensively over the past 2-3 years. I have tested at Ancestry, 23 and me, Big Y and full MtDNA at FTDNA, uploaded to Gedmatch and MyHeritage as well as LDNA

    I am Cornish on my fathers side. On my paper trail, I can trace back about five generations with confidence, and speculate back another generation. LDNA gives me 51.7 in complete mode and 53.2 in cautious. So for me. LDNA as an Autosomal test, mainly because of its regional focus to Great Britain and Ireland, is the most accurate of the tests.

    I judge their test simply on my Cornish percentage and it looks right, also I feel their cautious mode makes the most sense, East Anglia 23.1 and South Central England 11.8 corresponds in most parts to my paper trail.

    On Ancestry I scored 44% Ireland 28% Europe West but only 2% GB, with 23andme 75.2 B & I and 99 % NW European. FTDNA tells me I am Western and Central European. MyHeritage results are too ridiculous to post, lets just say according to them I should be living in a villa somewhere in Spain.

    Results are only as good as the samples and data available, and even in the testing I have done, there is a significant difference in estimation of my ancestry.
    So you got Western and Central European as your highest component for Ftdna too? MacEochaidh and I both had that problem with their test.. would you please post your ftdna results? I really want to see your my heritage results too if possible.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Eastern European and Eastern German (Galicia, Poland) 25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, French 8.2%, Native American 1.95%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be determined with complete certainty: there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English. The rest could include Spanish, Norwegian, German, and French, but these percentages would be minuscule.

  16. #29
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    West and Central Europe 55
    British Isles 34
    Scandinavia 10
    Eastern Europe <2

    MyHeritiage AncestryDNA

    North and West Europe 52.4
    Irish, Scots and Welsh 39.4
    Scandinavian 13

    Southern Europe
    Iberian 24.6
    Italian 3.2

    Eastern European 19.8

    With 23andme

    NW Europe 52.1
    Irish Scots and Welsh 42.0
    Scandinavian 10.1

    South Europe 29.3
    Iberian 22.7
    Italian 6.6

    East Europe 18.6
    Eastern Europe 13.3
    Baltic 5.3

    As I say MyHeritage results are a bit of an outlier

    Perhaps it is time for that villa in Spain watching Real v Barcelona. I simply cannot make sense of MyHeritage.

    I am more than happy for someone to explain it to me.

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  18. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by timberwolf View Post
    FTDNA

    West and Central Europe 55
    British Isles 34
    Scandinavia 10
    Eastern Europe <2

    MyHeritiage AncestryDNA

    North and West Europe 52.4
    Irish, Scots and Welsh 39.4
    Scandinavian 13

    Southern Europe
    Iberian 24.6
    Italian 3.2

    Eastern European 19.8

    With 23andme

    NW Europe 52.1
    Irish Scots and Welsh 42.0
    Scandinavian 10.1

    South Europe 29.3
    Iberian 22.7
    Italian 6.6

    East Europe 18.6
    Eastern Europe 13.3
    Baltic 5.3

    As I say MyHeritage results are a bit of an outlier

    Perhaps it is time for that villa in Spain watching Real v Barcelona. I simply cannot make sense of MyHeritage.

    I am more than happy for someone to explain it to me.
    I'm no expert on this stuff and happy to be corrected. On your my heritage results I would guess they are confusing your Cornish with Irish Scots and Welsh to some extent as matching to the closest population sets they have available ( their calculation may just be unreliable too).
    I score Basque/Iberian quite consistently on various calculators, in fact it is the only Continental Europe I score on LivingDNA, although at a lower percentage than you. My ancestry is significantly Welsh including I believe some from North Wales (possibly Anglesey). I think my Basque/Iberian relates in some way to the most " old Welsh" of my Welsh ancestry. There could be other reasons for this this but my best guess at the moment is that "Basque" is a genetically relatively isolated population and may be closest to earlier populations in the British Isles. I tend to get small percentage matches with other relatively genetically isolated populations like the Kalash of NW Pakistan region and even recently Sardinian.
    I can see that you might well get a similar effect for from someone from Cornwall as you would ancestry from the remoter parts of Wales. What this means I don't know but I'm wondering whether some of this could go back to even pre-Iron age peoples? As I said, I'm no expert and if someone can up with a better explanation, I would be happy to hear it. John
    Last edited by JohnHowellsTyrfro; 06-25-2017 at 06:37 AM. Reason: typo

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