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Thread: Cornish and Breton ancestry and DNA

  1. #71
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    I also have Cornish ancestry through my Jewell family line which shows up in some oracles. Could it be categorized under Irish in AncestryDNA? AncestryDNARach.png

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  3. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rach_27 View Post
    I also have Cornish ancestry through my Jewell family line which shows up in some oracles. Could it be categorized under Irish in AncestryDNA? AncestryDNARach.png
    a bit aside of the topic: have you searched for the JEWELL name origin?
    because it could be the breton name JUHEL, from IUD-HAEL, a name which lost weight in breton speaking area (where the J- was pronounced like Y-) but is still cMmon enough in Central and Eastern Brittany, pronounced with french /j-/ - the East Brittany little noblemen who went to Britain along with William the Bastard spoke no more breton for the most of them and had as often germanic or roman names as celtic names, but nevertheless brought some common celtic breton names to Britain, respelled like: JEKYLL (IUDIC-HAEL - a son of a IUDHAEL! - >>JEZEQUEL/GICQUEL), WIGAN (UUICON>>GUEGUEN/GUEGAN), ALLEN (ALLAN/ALLEN), WHYMARK (UUI-HO-MARC>>GUYOMARD/GUYONVARC'H)...

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  5. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rach_27 View Post
    I also have Cornish ancestry through my Jewell family line which shows up in some oracles. Could it be categorized under Irish in AncestryDNA? AncestryDNARach.png
    Could be, I think anywhere in the Western side of Britain, could come under Ireland in Ancestry, it’s my understanding.
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  7. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by moesan View Post
    a bit aside of the topic: have you searched for the JEWELL name origin?
    because it could be the breton name JUHEL, from IUD-HAEL, a name which lost weight in breton speaking area (where the J- was pronounced like Y-) but is still cMmon enough in Central and Eastern Brittany, pronounced with french /j-/ - the East Brittany little noblemen who went to Britain along with William the Bastard spoke no more breton for the most of them and had as often germanic or roman names as celtic names, but nevertheless brought some common celtic breton names to Britain, respelled like: JEKYLL (IUDIC-HAEL - a son of a IUDHAEL! - >>JEZEQUEL/GICQUEL), WIGAN (UUICON>>GUEGUEN/GUEGAN), ALLEN (ALLAN/ALLEN), WHYMARK (UUI-HO-MARC>>GUYOMARD/GUYONVARC'H)...
    Can I ask you a question about Breton names please? My paternal ancestry seems to have been in the Welsh Borders, Herefordshire back to 1699, where I believe there was a fairly significant Breton presence post-conquest. The surname Howells (Not Howell or Powell) appears to be concentrated in West Wales, the Welsh Border Counties and unexpectedly in Norfolk where I believe there was also a Breton presence. I understand there is or was a Breton equivalent of the name Howel/Hywel - "Hoel"? I believe there was a King of Brittany of that name?
    I appear to share paternal descent with the Cecils (William Cecil 1st Baron Burghley etc) although it seems my branch pre-dates the Burghley branch. One (unproved) version of the Cecil origins is with Robert Sitsyllt a follower on Robert Fitzhamon in the conquest of Glamorgan about 1090. Is there a Breton or Norman name with similarities to Sitsyllt, Cecil or Saissil please? If the answer is no then at least I will have some idea. We are all U106 Z326 which I appreciate may not be that representative of Breton ancestry. We are looking at estimated dates for the SNPs at the moment. Would appreciate your thoughts. John

  8. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by moesan View Post
    a bit aside of the topic: have you searched for the JEWELL name origin?
    because it could be the breton name JUHEL, from IUD-HAEL, a name which lost weight in breton speaking area (where the J- was pronounced like Y-) but is still cMmon enough in Central and Eastern Brittany, pronounced with french /j-/ - the East Brittany little noblemen who went to Britain along with William the Bastard spoke no more breton for the most of them and had as often germanic or roman names as celtic names, but nevertheless brought some common celtic breton names to Britain, respelled like: JEKYLL (IUDIC-HAEL - a son of a IUDHAEL! - >>JEZEQUEL/GICQUEL), WIGAN (UUICON>>GUEGUEN/GUEGAN), ALLEN (ALLAN/ALLEN), WHYMARK (UUI-HO-MARC>>GUYOMARD/GUYONVARC'H)...
    Very interesting, thanks, I will have to look into the origin of the name. My Jewell ancestors lived in Cornwall but that is as much as I know at this stage..

  9. #76
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    I 'll search but not sure to find something about Sitsyllt or close names -
    curiously (or not) Fitzhamon remind me of the second name and christian name Hamon very common in Brittany spite a well supposed Germanic origin, and honoured as a Breton saint, with derived surnames as Hémon, Hémonou, Hamonic, Hamono, Hamonou in Breton speaking areas; the Breton knights of William the Bastard often took names formed on the FITZ-... or ....-KIN models after two or three generations, if what I red is true (look at FItzwalter FitzAlan, founder of the Stewart's/Stuart's - Yes there has been breton knights in East Anglia, more in Essex I suppose; but the name Whymark doesn't seem "foreign" in Norfolk.

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  11. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by moesan View Post
    I 'll search but not sure to find something about Sitsyllt or close names -
    curiously (or not) Fitzhamon remind me of the second name and christian name Hamon very common in Brittany spite a well supposed Germanic origin, and honoured as a Breton saint, with derived surnames as Hémon, Hémonou, Hamonic, Hamono, Hamonou in Breton speaking areas; the Breton knights of William the Bastard often took names formed on the FITZ-... or ....-KIN models after two or three generations, if what I red is true (look at FItzwalter FitzAlan, founder of the Stewart's/Stuart's - Yes there has been breton knights in East Anglia, more in Essex I suppose; but the name Whymark doesn't seem "foreign" in Norfolk.
    Thanks, don't go to too much trouble, I just thought you might have heard of it or not. If you haven't maybe it isn't likely.
    Fitzhamon is sometimes written Fitzhamo without the "n" in some documents. Link on Fitzhamon below.John

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...YlktognSV3M0BQ

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  13. #78
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    I thought LivingDNA got my British breakdown correct. It gives 3.3% Cornwall which comes from about 7 gens back of a Woolcocke/Woolcox/Wilcox that went to Canada. Other Cornwall names include Vercoe.

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  15. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    Can I ask you a question about Breton names please? My paternal ancestry seems to have been in the Welsh Borders, Herefordshire back to 1699, where I believe there was a fairly significant Breton presence post-conquest. The surname Howells (Not Howell or Powell) appears to be concentrated in West Wales, the Welsh Border Counties and unexpectedly in Norfolk where I believe there was also a Breton presence. I understand there is or was a Breton equivalent of the name Howel/Hywel - "Hoel"? I believe there was a King of Brittany of that name?
    I appear to share paternal descent with the Cecils (William Cecil 1st Baron Burghley etc) although it seems my branch pre-dates the Burghley branch. One (unproved) version of the Cecil origins is with Robert Sitsyllt a follower on Robert Fitzhamon in the conquest of Glamorgan about 1090. Is there a Breton or Norman name with similarities to Sitsyllt, Cecil or Saissil please? If the answer is no then at least I will have some idea. We are all U106 Z326 which I appreciate may not be that representative of Breton ancestry. We are looking at estimated dates for the SNPs at the moment. Would appreciate your thoughts. John
    Y-R1b-U106 exists in Brittany spite it's not a major lineage and could be from Vikings or Franks - TJ MORGAN and Rhys MORGAN in their book about welsh names seem thinking the forms in Seisyll/Seisyllt/Sitsyltt preceded the forms Cecil and that the spelling of the name now spelled Cecil (family of Burghly) was close to the above names, and the family cradle would have been in Allterynnis/Alltyrynys, near Abergavenny, Gwent - they cites in the borders forms like Seithlid, Seyisyllt, Seisil, Seisill ap Saisall, Seisild, Syshelth... among others in old acts. In Brittany I don't see any surname coming close to Sesyltt/Cecil (a confusion with the romance name based on the root meaning "blind"?)

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  17. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by moesan View Post
    Y-R1b-U106 exists in Brittany spite it's not a major lineage and could be from Vikings or Franks - TJ MORGAN and Rhys MORGAN in their book about welsh names seem thinking the forms in Seisyll/Seisyllt/Sitsyltt preceded the forms Cecil and that the spelling of the name now spelled Cecil (family of Burghly) was close to the above names, and the family cradle would have been in Allterynnis/Alltyrynys, near Abergavenny, Gwent - they cites in the borders forms like Seithlid, Seyisyllt, Seisil, Seisill ap Saisall, Seisild, Syshelth... among others in old acts. In Brittany I don't see any surname coming close to Sesyltt/Cecil (a confusion with the romance name based on the root meaning "blind"?)
    Thank you for that I appreciate it. My paternal ancestors lived about 10 miles from Alt Yr Ynys. My branch pre-dates the Burghley branch, common ancestor about 1300 AD (estimate).
    Yes you are right there was a theory that the origin of the Cecil name could have been from the Roman Caecilius. I've also seen it suggested it could relate to Sextus (sixth).
    I think a Norman ( and allies) origin is quite possible but I can't relate the surname Cecil to that origin. Hywel or Howell (forename ) could have a Breton influence from Hoel. Howells - (Howell/Hywel's son) is quite concentrated in this area.
    Many thanks again for the reply. John

    Y ancestry.jpg

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