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Thread: Which L21+ Subclades may have originated in The Isles?

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    Which L21+ Subclades may have originated in The Isles?

    Are there any L21+ Subclades that may have originated in The Isles, or are they all Continental? Which L21+ Subclades are most likely to have originated in The Isles?

    I'm DF23* and I notice that, with early results, it seems that DF49 all comes from The Isles, but those of DF23+ seem to be more scattered. Could this mean that DF23 originated in the Isles at a time when people from The Isles were beginning to to travel to and from the Continent at a greater rate?

    Miles Kehoe
    Y-DNA R-DF23>ZP149>ZP171 MDKA John Doherty, b. 1845, Faughanvale, Derry, Ireland.
    mtDNA T2g1 MDKA Francoise Arguin, b. 1698, Camaret-Sur-Mer, Bretagne, France

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    I think many if not most of the oldest branches may have originated on the Continent, but some of their younger offspring may have arisen in the Isles. L226 springs to mind as one that probably arose in Ireland, but its "grandfather" (so to speak), Z253, probably originated on the Continent. (I'm not sure about the intermediate step, Z2534.)

    I'm not sure about my own thus-far-terminal SNP, DF41. It seems to be old enough to have originated on the Continent, but we only have one continental DF41+ result so far, from SE France. All the other positives are from the Isles, unless one accepts the Stewarts' tradition of Breton origin, and even that could ultimately be of Isles derivation by way of the Britons who went to Armorica at the end of the Roman Period.

    I think L1335 and its offspring, L1065, are probably of Isles origin.

    I haven't tried to sort through all of L21's descendants, though.
    Last edited by rms2; 07-13-2013 at 11:58 PM.

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    Bear in mind there's no direct evidence for SNP geographical origins at all with L21 at this point (at least using Jean's tables there doesn't seem to be any). There is nothing to suggest a continental presence at all for my own youngish subclade of L720+. Its father clade of DF21+ has precious few continental examples, and unlike some, I do not think there is any convincing evidence that these few suggest an origin of any kind. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it is far better to base interpretations on what is known.
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    It's somewhat frustrating to start up on a new dna discussion forum and then have to rerun all of the old arguments that have already been hashed and re-hashed elsewhere several years ago. There are a number of indications that L21 probably originated on the Continent and not in the Isles. Whether or not haplotype variance is a good indicator of a haplogroup's origin or of its antiquity in a particular place is a matter of controversy, but the last I heard, for L21, it was greatest in France. In terms of SNP diversity, the Continent has a much more varied P312+ milieu than Britain and Ireland. It certainly seems more likely to be the womb of L21 than an environment where the P312 is overwhelmingly of one kind. I mean, if L21 was born in the Isles, where are the branches of P312 from which L21 diverged? They all appear to be on the Continent. There is little P312xL21 in the Isles, and what is there is either concentrated in eastern England or in places where the English later settled. Add to that the fact that L21 in the Isles is mostly DF13+. In fact, in Ireland and Wales, it is - unless I missed something - exclusively DF13+. The DF63 in Britain is markedly eastern, probably an indicator that DF63 arrived later than DF13 and from the Continent.

    In the past, I have produced long posts elsewhere detailing the overwhelming British Isles bias in our y-dna databases, or, at least, in FTDNA's database. That bias has plagued us as long as I can remember: certainly from late October of 2008, when, for all real intents and purposes, L21 was discovered. It is problem enough for L21 testing; it is an even more acute problem for the testing of the downstream SNP's. Yet, despite the relative dearth of continentals in FTDNA's database, L21 makes a pretty good showing, especially in France, a showing that was reinforced in Busby et al.

    I am not going to go back right now and hunt through the R-L21 Plus Project to produce the equivalent of a college term paper, but I know from experience that our French L21+ tend to have few, if any, haplotype neighbors (otherwise known as "matches"), and they tend to be DF13*. That, as I recall, is true of the Germans, as well. In other words, they don't show any signs of having been derived chiefly from the British Isles.

    So, I believe L21 arose on the European Continent, in a P312 milieu far more diverse than the one in the British Isles. Basing my interpretations on what is known, I see no evidence whatsoever that a form of P312 ancestral to L21 went to the Isles and later gave rise to L21 there. From what I can see, L21 went to the Isles as L21 and probably as already DF13. In fact, I think at least some of the major branch DF13+ clades probably came to the Isles from the Continent, as well.

    The demand for "direct evidence" in this field is a nearly impossible requirement. It generally means ancient y-dna results, since there are no eyewitnesses available from the Bronze Age, the Copper Age, or the Neolithic Period. There certainly are none, as far as we know, who were conducting y-dna tests for SNP's that were only just discovered in the first decade of the 21st century.

    Maybe we will see some news of ancient y-dna testing very soon that answers many of our questions. Until then, there is circumstantial evidence, and logical inferences can be made from what is known.
    Last edited by rms2; 07-14-2013 at 12:13 PM.

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    As an aside about P312, I see over on Eupedia they finally created a map for just P312+ (as oppose to for L21 or U152 seperately). Though I would have prefered if they had labled it as "P312+" as oppose to "Italo-Celtic"


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    I believe the bulk of the P312xL21xU152 in the Isles is DF27+. As I said before, its distribution seems to indicate that it arrived from the Continent later than L21. The same is true of the U152+ in the Isles. There are no indications of any P312 in the Isles immediately ancestral to L21 that later spawned other supposedly Isles-born P312+ clades.

    But I think there are one or two P312* guys of British Isles origin who have ordered full y chromosome sequencing. Perhaps one of them will show positive for a P312+ SNP shared with all the L21+ guys (and not otherwise present on the Continent), which might indicate an Isles origin for L21. I don't think that will be the case, but you never know.
    Last edited by rms2; 07-14-2013 at 12:52 PM.

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    Well some of the of the DF27+ we see in Ireland is Z196- and these tend to carry native Irish surnames (Ryan, Dwyer, Kennedy, O'Neill etc.). There is obviously DF27+ -> Z196+ -> L176.2+ types as well as those carrying SRY2627+ who probably are indeed later.

    I do think as well that a good chunk of the P312* (L21-, U152-) in Britain is probably DF19+ and perhaps also L238+, these two appear to have more of a North-West Europe distrubition when it comes to P312 clades. L238 I believe is associated somewhat with scandinavia.

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    That's true, but that Irish DF27 is likely to have come from the Continent, as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    That's true, but that Irish DF27 is likely to have come from the Continent, as well.
    Sure but ye could say the same for the Irish L21+

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    The problem is that so much isles is tested compared to any continental country. 100s isles tested for each continental one from any single country so we have an utterly distorted view of all L21 clades. From what I can see too, the isles L21 has a big aspect of more recent uber-clades while the continental is diverse and unclustered in the main (bar a couple of Iberian ones). Variance is highest in France too. I recall too that, per head, there is a far higher proportion of L21XDF13 on the continent (specifically France and its border area with Spain). I dont think we have anywhere near enough downstream testing of SNPs to understand continental L21. Even if there are 100 isles hits and 1 continental in a clade that probably represents the same per head tested amount. Some people cannot get their head around this but its a fact. I suspect the basal clades of L21XDF13, DF23 and DF21 are continental in origin and arrived in Britain then Ireland.
    Last edited by alan; 07-14-2013 at 03:33 PM.

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