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Thread: Which L21+ Subclades may have originated in The Isles?

  1. #11
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    I agree with Dubhthach about the Irish variety DF27. All of the Z196 clades have some representation around the North Sea. All of the Z196- varieties are so far only showing in Spain and Britain. The English varieties of Z220 are lining up with the northeast varieties as they are missing the downstream snps of Z216/Z278, Z214, and M153. I am predicting that most of Z220 on the isles are no older than the Anglo-Saxon period, L165 is no older than the same. SRY2627 is perplexing as I think it could be pre-roman up to Norman. But the Irish Z196- is interesting as they seem to be native names. Is it possible that we have the L21 and DF27 thing reversed. What if L21 is much older in Spain, France, and the isles, whereas, DF27 is more representational of the Iron Age. Next to Z214 and M153 amongst the basque is a considerable amount of L21 and it is older as far as the estimations of the clades compared to the Noth/South Variety found amongst the basque.

  2. #12
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    Just to reiterate, this thread was NOT about L21 originating in The Isles!! This thread was asking which Subclades of L21 may have originated in The Isles.
    Y-DNA R-DF23>ZP149>ZP171 MDKA Thomas Doherty, b. 1825, Three Trees, Donegal, Ireland.
    mtDNA T2g1 MDKA Francoise Arguin, b. 1698, Camaret-Sur-Mer, Bretagne, France

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  4. #13
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    In my opinion:
    • L371
    • L226
    • L563 (DF41+)
    • L745 (DF41+/L744+/L746+)
    • L193 (L513+)
    • L159.2 (Z255+)
    • P66 (L513+/L69.4+)
    • L69.4 (specific to L513)
    • M222 -- possibly also Z2961 (DF49+/DF23+)
    • L555
    • L144

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I am not going to go back right now and hunt through the R-L21 Plus Project to produce the equivalent of a college term paper, but I know from experience that our French L21+ tend to have few, if any, haplotype neighbors (otherwise known as "matches"), and they tend to be DF13*. That, as I recall, is true of the Germans, as well. In other words, they don't show any signs of having been derived chiefly from the British Isles.
    FG6UV of Poznań is DF13* but rather distant from everyone else in Ysearch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    FG6UV of Poznań is DF13* but rather distant from everyone else in Ysearch.
    I don't think it's any surprise to rule out DF13* as a Subclade of L21+ which may have originated in The Isles. It appears that only Dubhtach read the title of the thread and responded.

    To me, the question is important. For all of those L21+ Subclades that MAY (may) have originated on the Continent, where was the staging ground and did they filter into the Isles or slam it all in one massive invasion.

    Also, is it even a possibility that an L21+ Subclade man who came to The Isles could have had descendants who left The Isles for the Continent? It would seem to me that L21+ Subclades going from The Isles to the Continent may become more spread out and have more possibility to have lines die out than those remaining in the confinement of The Isles. If a line came from Ireland to Boston and lived there for generations before a few of the line moved to Oregon, I would think the line would have an easier time dying out, or at least becoming more spread out, in Oregon than in the smaller confines of Boston.
    Y-DNA R-DF23>ZP149>ZP171 MDKA Thomas Doherty, b. 1825, Three Trees, Donegal, Ireland.
    mtDNA T2g1 MDKA Francoise Arguin, b. 1698, Camaret-Sur-Mer, Bretagne, France

  9. #16
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    I think that the L1335/L1065 YSNPs really point out the issue surround determining the geographic origin of any YSNP. Both are 95 % Isles in origin which imply an Isles origin of both YSNPs. L1335 has two unique fingerprints remaining that have survived that are quite different both YSTR patterns and geographic origins. The L1335-Price fingerprint appears clearly Welsh (5 Welsh and one low match that is Scottish). The main L1335 fingerprint is the same as its son, L1065. This SNP/fingerprint is clearly dominated by Scottish: Scotland 343, Ireland 63, England 24, Norway 2, Wales 1, France 1 and Germany 1. L1065 also has the son L743 which is all Templetons that are Scottish and even lower match non-Templetons are primarily Scottish as well.

    Here are conclusion that I make based on statistical odds, low fingerprint matches and weighting fingerprints: 1) The very small counts for L1065 are probably due to immigration to continental Europe or Wales; 2) L1065 is clearly dominated by Scottish (80 %) with significant Irish and English. Statistically, there is 80 % chance of the origin being Scottish, 15 % of being Irish and 5 % chance of being English. I would bet on Scottish origins. Low fingerprint matches show no significant change in origins; 3) the origins of L1335 is a little more problematic. Since L1065 and L743 dominate L1335, it would be easy to conclude that L1335 has Scottish origins as well. However, L1335 has two distinct fingerprints that have survived to date and one branch is dominated by Scottish and the other much smaller branch is dominated by Welsh. So there is a low odds possibility of having Welsh origins. But the only way to explain the differences in the size of these two fingerprints is a genetic bottleneck - a scenario that is lower odds but could happen. Again, Las Vegas odd makers would always go with statistics that bring in the most money as I would. However, our ancestors sometimes take the low odds scenario on regular basis.
    Last edited by RobertCasey; 07-15-2013 at 04:10 PM.

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  11. #17
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    This could have been an Irish L21 chap. Who knows?

    http://charles-mount.ie/wp/?p=1029

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacEochaidh View Post
    Just to reiterate, this thread was NOT about L21 originating in The Isles!! This thread was asking which Subclades of L21 may have originated in The Isles.
    Too late, Miles. I answered your initial post about subclades, but the origin of L21 itself was introduced in post #3, which was pretty early on.

  13. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacEochaidh View Post
    I don't think it's any surprise to rule out DF13* as a Subclade of L21+ which may have originated in The Isles. It appears that only Dubhtach read the title of the thread and responded.

    To me, the question is important. For all of those L21+ Subclades that MAY (may) have originated on the Continent, where was the staging ground and did they filter into the Isles or slam it all in one massive invasion.

    Also, is it even a possibility that an L21+ Subclade man who came to The Isles could have had descendants who left The Isles for the Continent? It would seem to me that L21+ Subclades going from The Isles to the Continent may become more spread out and have more possibility to have lines die out than those remaining in the confinement of The Isles. If a line came from Ireland to Boston and lived there for generations before a few of the line moved to Oregon, I would think the line would have an easier time dying out, or at least becoming more spread out, in Oregon than in the smaller confines of Boston.
    Did you bother to read the first response in this thread after your initial post? Evidently not.

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ull=1#post9733

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertCasey View Post
    ... But the only way to explain the differences in the size of these two fingerprints is a genetic bottleneck - a scenario that is lower odds but could happen. Again, Las Vegas odd makers would always go with statistics that bring in the most money as I would. However, our ancestors sometimes take the low odds scenario on regular basis.
    I have to agree with Robert and as it pertains to bottlecks. I submit, as I have before, that frequency is not a good indicator of origin. Both SNP early branching diversity and STR diversity are better but there is no conclusive information available. Most alternatives are still probably possible, even if some are more probable.

    I think Paul D has given us a pretty decent list of L21 subclades that have higher odds of being of Isles origin, but there will no complete agreement even on those. For instance, I know of L193 people that are convinced they are from the continent because of surname traditions, etc. I can't say the genetic evidence backs it up but we can't absolutely rule that out. L193 may not be older than 1000 years.

    [[[ Speaking as a moderator on 7/15/2013, please let's just focus on the topic and not worry about it how we got off track and if we think we need a new thread for something that is off-track let's start it up. ]]]

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