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Thread: Portuguese Y-DNA J1-M365 cluster

  1. #1
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    Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ Brazil

    Portuguese Y-DNA J1-M365 cluster

    We can observe a Portuguese, Galician-Portuguese or Western Iberian J1-M365 cluster. The cluster is exclusive of the Iberian Western Atlantic Façade and not found in any other Iberian region (Castile, Basque Country, Andalusia. Catalonia). There's a correlation between language and this Y-DNA cluster. There's also an Imperial distribution of the cluster because the haplotypes were found from Ourense-Galicia, Minho, Central Portugal, Algarve, Azores and Brazil. Most of the Portuguese haplotypes usually don't have 67 matches and are singletons found only in some regions. I think the Portuguese J1-M365 were present in the Portuguese Frontiers since the beggining of the Reino-Kingdom following the Portuguese conquests and colonization everywhere. We can find the same cluster at the former SMGF database and in YHRD.

    Rasht Gilaki Iran is a 17/16 match with Mato Grosso do Sul, Brazil - In the Yfiler - YHRD

    DYS456 15
    DYS389I 13
    DYS390 22
    DYS389II 29
    DYS458 18.2
    DYS19 15
    DYS385 (12,19 or 12,20)
    DYS393 13
    DYS391 10
    DYS439 11
    DYS635 21
    DYS392 11
    YGATAH4 10
    DYS437 14
    DYS438 10
    DYS448 20

    We can find 10 haplotypes at FTDNA
    Probably we can have one subgroup with 391=11 and another one only found in the Azorean Island of Pico with 458=20

    J1-M365 jun 2017aa.jpg

    In YFull tree we have FGC6064>FGC6031<Y19467
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC6064/
    We would need a full sequence of the Iranian Caspian cluster to understand the genetic distance in terms of SNPs. We don't know anything about the NGS Y-DNA Iranian basal J1 clusters.
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal

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  3. #2
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    Is there anything of interest at http://www.semargl.me ?

  4. #3
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    Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ Brazil
    Nothing new at Semargl.
    We can observe the last 1000 years with STR matches. We only have two NG Sequences at YFull - YF04781 and YF01554 formed 5500 ybp, TMRCA 1250 ybp. They have a distance of 8 at FTDNA 67 markers.
    The Portuguese J1-M365 cluster is one of the biggest Portuguese clusters found in the last 1000 years (almost 0,5% of the total, a relatively big proportion for a recent cluster in a rare haplogroup in Iberia). This expansion can be explained by the expansion of the Christian Frontier, I think. People and haplotypes related to the military expansion of the Portuguese frontier (State, Language, Religion) in the Medieval Times could be distributed around the new conquered lands. That Portuguese specific J1-M365 is a kind of ethno-historical cluster associated only with the Portuguese Empire.
    A recent archaelogical study is showing that relation in the frontiers. Tough times in the Al-Mansur (b. ca 938-d 1002), Almoravid and Almohad total wars.

    Diet in a Templar town: Medieval Portuguese diet from
    carbon and nitrogen stable isotope ratios
    A. Curto1; P. Mahoney1; G. Fahy11 University of Kent
    The aim of this study is to reconstruct medieval human diet in Tomar,
    Portugal, using stable isotope analysis of bone collagen. Tomar's medieval
    necropolis was used from the 11th to 16th centuries, a period in which
    Portugal went through various socio-cultural and political changes; from the
    Reconquista to civil war and the Age of Discoveries. Tomar was a Templar
    town located on the main Portuguese route connecting the North of the
    country to the limits of the Reconquista. Historical textual evidence
    highlights differences in meat consumption in Templars compared to
    individuals with similar social status. It is possible that these dietary
    restrictions were reflected in the population in the form of angling and
    warren rights, which were shared betweenthe Crown and the Military
    Orders. Conversely, merchants, crafters and farmers participated actively
    in the local army alongside knights, increasing their status and most likely
    their access to similar food resources.In this study, carbon and nitrogen
    stable isotope ratios from bone collagen were analysed. Forty skeletons
    were sampled (20 males; 20 females) to investigate diet in this population
    and possible dietary differences between males and females. Faunal
    remains (herbivorous, carnivorous and omnivorous) were also analysed to
    reconstruct a dietary baseline. This town's rich history makes it very
    interesting for dietary reconstruction, shedding light upon medieval Military
    Orders and their influence on the civil population.
    http://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/11584...tract_book.pdf
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal

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  6. #4
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    You really need to stop this 0.5% thing, that's just too high really, even in northern Portugal it reaches only 0.1% at best. There's no way J1-M365 is borne by 1 portuguese male out of 200. You've increased it almost ten-fold. Anyway, J1-M365 in Europe is a real mystery and we need that french and belgian samples to see whether the halogroup is really about 6kya old in Europe or not. Iranian samples are also a must for this analysis and I came wondering if the iberian haplotypes are more related to the iranian cluster rather than to the english one as this would favor a historical arrival.

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    Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ Brazil
    I have been observing FTDNA Ancestral matches for this cluster for almost ten years and the 0.5% has always been regular and constant, the Portuguese J1-M365 cluster is very interesting because we can find some haplotypes with Y-67 markers not showing in other Portuguese Y-67 matches with intermediary matches from the same cluster, what is showing a relatively recent star-like expansion for this rare haplogroup only in Portugal. The same rate (0.5%) also could be found with SMGF database and in some articles with Portuguese haplotypes. I agree with you that the Caspian, Northern Iranian haplotypes are closer to the Portuguese than the English haplotypes in terms of STR. I hope we can test (NGS-SNPS)one Iranian individual with the same modal haplotype.
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal

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  10. #6
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    Yes the portuguese cluster is recent but that doesnt have to do with it being of recent arrival it could just be that it is the only surviving M365 line in Portugal, which wouldn't be surprising given the very low frequencies. I don't know why you keep insisting about the 0.5% thing when YHRD samples from mainland Portugal totalized more than 2,000 samples with absolutely no J1-M365 at all and I can link you to other studies with none of it either.

  11. #7
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    Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ Brazil
    There's always a margin of error in any samples. Depends on the subregional sampling fractions and locations, as well, depends on social structures.
    I wrote that in 2008 and I still think it`s correct J1-M365 used to be J1b then:

    domingo, 7 de dezembro de 2008
    Y DNA haplotypes and frequencies. The Portuguese-Brazilian J1b case
    How can we find if a haplotype is considered as “established” or “outsider” in a given population?
    It’s a question of frequency, perhaps. If a haplotype with a recognized genetic motif is present in any reliable sample of the population then we can infer that the haplotype is well distributed homogeneously in the population in a certain frequency. Even small frequencies of the order of 0,1 % can be detected and recognized in the case of big samples (<500). My case study is the frequency of the rare, but clearly visible J1b M365+ haplotypes in the Brazilian and Portuguese population. This genetic signature can be easily identified with the DYS19=15, DYS=390=22, DYS393=13 and a J1 signal like 458.2 or 388=16 what is a most probable way to capture a J1b haplotype.
    In every big Portuguese and Brazilian databases (FTDNA, YHRD, SMGF) I can find the mentioned J1b motif provisory named as the “J1b Alan Modal Haplotype” in the Portuguese and Brazilian DNA stock. The frequency of the Portuguese J1b STR/SNP in the Portuguese population is estimated in between 0,2-0,8% of the total. The Portuguese Y DNA contribution to the Brazilian population has been estimated in circa de 40% (Sérgio Pena: 2000) what means 5 millions of Portuguese Y DNA in Portugal and 40 millions in Brazil. A haplotype will be considered as an established haplotype in a population if it’s found in a regular frequency in a constant and homogeneous participation in any big sample of this population. That’s the case of the J1b haplotype.
    The article “Haplotype diversity of 17 Y-chromosome STRs in Brazilians”, Pereira et al, Forensic Science International 171 (2007) 226–236, lists 481 Brazilian haplotypes and there’s one identified as J1b, the number HP 406 with the “Alan Modal Haplotype”: DYS19=15, DYS=390=22, DYS393=13, the 458.2 and the rare DYS385I/II 12-20. So, just like the FTDNA, YHRD, SMGF databases, this article also keeps the regular statistical frequency of 0,2% of the Brazilian J1b haplotype. The J1b haplotype participation in the Brazilian and Portuguese population must be related to its participation since the formation of the original stock of the Portuguese population during the “ethnogenesis age” of the creation of this distinct population organized around the Minho and Douro rivers 1500 years ago (Hispano-Romans, Suebis, Alans coalescence in the Minho-Coimbra area). That’s the same chronology of the formation of the Portuguese language as a distinct and organized language. The consequence of a distinct community organized as a distinct society with a specific language led to the creation of hierarchies, social stratifications and finally led to the creation of the independent Portuguese National State around the 12th century as a response to the Moor Almoravid and Almohad onslaught of the 11th century. In the last thousand years the Portuguese population had gone through two bottlenecks, one around the year 1000 AD with the Moor pressure and the other in the Thirty Years War (1630-1654) with the Castilian pressure in Iberia and the Dutch pressure in Brazil, in both cases the threats of annihilation of the autonomy and existence of this population in Europe and in America led to a situation of total war and a subsequent victory with a new demographic boom of the Portuguese-Brazilian population in new conquered territories. The original male population of the Entre Douro e Minho with a population of perhaps 30.000 Y DNA around the year 1000 AD has multiplied to a half a million in 1500 and to 45 millions nowadays. The Minho little population with few resources has been able to conquer Portugal and then conquer one of the world big territories in Brazil to become one of the world’s “Monster Country”. So the calculated total number of J1b’s haplotypes in the Portuguese-Brazilian population (from 0,2 to 0,8%) of the total population (45 millions) could be between 90.000 and 360.000. A single male, the J1b Western Iberian Genearch perhaps coming in the Alan invasion, was the founder of this lineage. Would it be possible to guess any kind of social status of his position after a thousand of years ? That’s a difficult question but somehow this Eastern Anatolian/Caucasian/Caspian “exotic” Y DNA could survive and thrive in a completely different place in the westernmost part of Western Europe, in times of war and destruction, in a very distant population very far way from the place of the original source and original habitat of this SNP and in a completely different hostile haplogroup environment. What I can say is that most probably this haplotype had entered the Portuguese stock before or just at the exact foundational moment of the ethnogenesis of the Portuguese population because it’s well rooted in some deep rural traditional places of the Minho and it is very well homogeneously distributed with a regular frequency in every big sample of the Portuguese and Brazilian population. The J1b haplotype was not observed in the recent article “The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula”. No Hispanic populations of Castilian, Catalan, Basque languages of Iberia and no Sephardic, Jew, Moor, Arab or North African population has presented this haplotype. The J1b M365+ is a Western Iberian-Portuguese-Brazilian phenomenon.

    The American Journal of Human Genetics 04 December 2008
    doi:10.1016/j.ajhg.2008.11.007
    The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula
    Supplemental Data for M. Adams et al.
    http://www.cell.com/AJHG/supplementa...297(08)00592-2

    Haplotype diversity of 17 Y-chromosome STRs in Brazilians .
    Forensic Science International , Volume 171 , Issue 2 - 3 , Pages 226 - 236
    R . Pereira , E . Monteiro , G . Hirschfeld , A . Wang , D . Grattapaglia
    List of J1b haplotypes and candidates with the new Brazilian HP406 haplotype:
    http://tinyurl.com/5bg4f4
    Ricardo Costa de Oliveira
    Postado por Ricardo Costa de Oliveira às 13:06 Nenhum comentário:
    http://j1bm365.blogspot.com.br/2008/...ncies.html?m=0

    As of today 13/jul/17 we have 0.8% of J1-M365, four different haplotypes as a total of 535 Portuguese 67 markers haplotypes, 4 in a total of 535, with substantial distances at this level. I don`t remember to find any other exclusively Portuguese haplotype with 0.8% of the total in the same Ancestral Origins table with 67 markers with similar results. We still have another 67 markers kit not showing there, what would be more 0.2%, with a genetic distance of 8 in 67, so we have 5 Portuguese descendents J1-M365 Y-67 at FTDNA database right now, what is almost 1.0% in FTDNA`s Portuguese total. So we can compare with YHRD Portuguese Mainland and compensate the proportions to more or less 0.5. I think we have some local concentrations around the Atlantic Littoral close to Viana do Castelo, Barcelos and Braga.Of course that`s an Imperial cluster following the Portuguese Seaborne Empire.

    FTDNA Ancestral Origins 13 de julho de 2017 kit 82640.jpg

    The J1-M365 world map
    Up-to-dated J1-M365 Map
    http://tinyurl.com/5owkuh
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal

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    A major breakthrough. For the first time at FTDNA one individual from the Caspian Sea or Northern Middle East, Northern Iran from this clade.
    Now we can compare the Portuguese cluster with the Iranian and the Portuguese cluster is closer to the Iranian than the English individuals in terms of STR
    The J-M365 Project ordered the Big Y test from the Iranian individual.

    J1-M365 Y-37 completo.jpg

    J1-M365 Y-37 completo distancia.jpg
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal

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    Awesome news !

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  17. #10
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    Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ Brazil
    Yes, I have been waiting for several years for a FTDNA haplotype from that region, I could find some in SMGF, in YHRD and now we can investigate via FTDNA Big Y the historical connection between the Caspian Sea adjacencies and the Atlantic Façade. We can see how J1 is complex and diverse in Western Europe.
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal

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