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Thread: L617 (DF27>L617)

  1. #1
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    L617 (DF27>L617)

    I have given details of L617+ on various forums, but just a reminder for anyone new, I have a web page at http://www.kin.marshdna.com/DNAresultsL617.htm which gives some information on what is known so far about the L617+ subclade. I would be keen to hear directly from any new L617+ persons, they can email me at [email protected] .

    I am L617+, and have ordered a full Y genome from https://www.fullgenomes.com/ , so when I get results I should have more SNPs to identify the L617+ subclade.

    I have not had direct information on how the full Y genome is presented, or how good the test company is, but unverified rumours sound encouraging. If anyone has recently had results from Full Genomes it would be good to hear how the company performed, and how results were presented. If the full Y genome lives up to expectations, I think we should be encouraging as many DF27+ people as can afford it to take the full Y genome test, as it will help us to unscramble DF27+ origins and spread.

    John.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 08-13-2013 at 02:14 PM. Reason: Make a little more consistent with category

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  3. #2
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    Recently we found 3 persons, 1 Kapuscinski and 2 Neeses, possible common ancestor from the area of Germany quite a long time ago, perhaps 1000 to 2000 years ago, who were L617+, but DF27-. DF27+ is definitely above L617+ in the Y haplotree, so all L617+ people would be expected to be DF27+. DF27- was unexpected!

    There could be alternative reasons for this. The Kapuscinski/ Neese branch could have had a back mutation to DF27- after the mutation to L617+, or this group could have originated with a separate mutation to L617 in a line which was DF27-.

    We know that a SNP mutation Z2552+ occurred fairly soon after DF 27+, and before L617+. I had the Kapuscinski tested for Z2552, and his results have just come back Z2552+. This is fairly compelling evidence that the Kapuscinski/ Neese branch were once DF27+, but some time after the Z2552+ and L617+, their line had a back mutation to DF27-.

    These sorts of back mutations are uncommon, but do occur. In this case it is interesting, and will help us to define a branch which possibly was in the general region of Germany perhaps 2000 years ago. Because Z2552 is not tested in most SNP pack tests, it will make it harder for us to locate this branch in Germany.

    We have not tested the Neeses for Z2552, but my guess is they are related to Kapuscinski and are most likely Z2552+.

    If anyone has any questions about this they can email me at [email protected]

    Regards,
    John Marsh.

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  5. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Marsh View Post
    Recently we found 3 persons, 1 Kapuscinski and 2 Neeses, possible common ancestor from the area of Germany quite a long time ago, perhaps 1000 to 2000 years ago, who were L617+, but DF27-.
    Kapuściński is not DF27- . His Y-DNA Haplotree & SNPs page clearly says DF27* , where
    ---
    * No call or heterozygous call
    ---

    At one time, FTDNA's web site had a bug whereby such a no-call would be erroneously listed on public project pages as negative. That bug has been fixed. Take a look at kit 435024 on the YSNPs page of the Polish Project:
    ---
    435024 Laurentius Kapuściński, b. 1832 Koźmin Wlkp. R-L617 L23+, L278+, L389+, L617+, L51+, M269+, P297+, P310+, P311+, P312+, M343+, Z2552+, M478-, M73-, MC14-, PF3252-, PF6610-, PF6714-, PF7562-, PF7589-, PF7600-, S1026-, S1051-, S11493-, S11601-, S12025-, S1567-, S16264-, S1688-, S18632-, S18827-, S6317-, S7721-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-, V88-, Y5058-, Z156-, Z16500-, Z17-, Z17300-, Z18-, Z1862-, Z195-, Z198-, Z209-, Z2103-, Z2109-, Z225-, Z251-, Z253-, Z2542-, Z255-, Z2573-, Z295-, Z3000-, Z301-, Z302-, Z326-, Z36-, Z367-, Z381-, Z49-, Z8-, Z8052-, Z9-, M335-, L513-, L584-, L881-, M1994-, M222-, L408-, L47-, L48-, L371-, L238-, A1773-, A2150-, A274-, A4670-, A517-, BY2823-, BY2868-, BY575-, BY653-, CTS10429-, CTS11994-, CTS1751-, CTS3386-, CTS3937-, CTS4466-, CTS4528-, CTS5330-, CTS5689-, CTS6937-, CTS7763-, DF103-, DF110-, DF17-, DF19-, DF21-, DF41-, DF49-, DF63-, DF81-, DF83-, DF88-, DF95-, DF99-, F2017-, F2691-, F2863-, FGC10516-, FGC11134-, FGC13620-, FGC20761-, FGC22501-, FGC3861-, FGC396-, FGC5301-, FGC5336-, FGC5344-, FGC5345-, FGC5351-, FGC5354-, FGC5356-, FGC5367-, FGC5373-, FGC5494-, FGC5798-, L1065-, L1335-, L2-, L21-, DF27*
    ---

    The truth is that DF27 has always been difficult to read.

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  7. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Marsh View Post
    DF27+ is definitely above L617+ in the Y haplotree, so all L617+ people would be expected to be DF27+.
    All L617+ people are expected to be (DF27>ZZ12>Z2552>L617). That's a thickly populated or "bushy" part of the tree below DF27. http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php...641&star=false

    I think the Plant family, or some members of it, have lost the detectable ZZ12 mutation in a RecLOH event; but their ancestors had it, like the rest of Z2552, including but not limited to its L617 branch. DF27 isn't on a palindrome, and doesn't have RecLOH events.

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  9. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Marsh View Post
    I had the Kapuscinski tested for Z2552
    Now it seems my subclade is descended from some lineages found nowadays in Spain (but the TMRCA is very old and perhaps even predates the arrival od R1b and Steppe admixture into Iberia - so our ancestor could live to the north/northeast of the Pyrenees), while my branch is ancestral to some lineages found in modern Great Britain (this includes e.g. user Garimund, who traced back his patrilineage to ca. 1400 in England):

    https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-FGC31068/
    Last edited by Tomenable; 09-04-2021 at 02:29 AM.

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  11. #6
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    In regards to the earlier posts in the thread, I had a no-call for DF27 as well. I am presumed positive for the SNP upstream of it and ZZ12, but DF27 is just gray on my haplotree on FTDNA.
    AncestryDNA results:
    England, Wales, & NW Europe 73%
    Ireland & Scotland 18%
    Germanic Europe 5%
    France 3%
    Cameroon, Congo 1%

    23&me results:
    British & Irish 62.9%
    French & German 15.0%
    Scandinavian 0.9%
    Broadly Northwestern European 19.4%
    Broadly Southern European 0.9%
    Broadly European 0.1%
    Sub-Saharan African 0.7%

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  13. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Marsh View Post
    Recently we found 3 persons, 1 Kapuscinski and 2 Neeses, possible common ancestor from the area of Germany quite a long time ago, perhaps 1000 to 2000 years ago, who were L617+
    It’s been a while since John Marsh has been around here, but I’d like to know if he still thought this to be true. I’d like to get a hold of the Neeses and ask them to test for BY194358. Adding another person to the tree with origins in Germany could tell us a lot.
    AncestryDNA results:
    England, Wales, & NW Europe 73%
    Ireland & Scotland 18%
    Germanic Europe 5%
    France 3%
    Cameroon, Congo 1%

    23&me results:
    British & Irish 62.9%
    French & German 15.0%
    Scandinavian 0.9%
    Broadly Northwestern European 19.4%
    Broadly Southern European 0.9%
    Broadly European 0.1%
    Sub-Saharan African 0.7%

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  15. #8
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    I came up with 2500BC as the age for L617 using 75 years per snp and using FTDNA’s block tree. L617 is at the 60 snp place marker. I used 75 because it seems to be the average age. My own tree is closer to 80 years per snp, while a parallel family on my tree is closer to 70. I think this is predicated by the average age gap between father and son. Anyway, 2500BC is much closer to Yfull’s age estimation of 2300BC compared to Ytree’s age estimation of 247AD.

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