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Thread: Bell Beaker and the Spread of R1b-P312

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    Bell Beaker and the Spread of R1b-P312

    Recently someone posted his opinion about Bell Beaker that it was "a local development and not [a] genetically spread cultural event". That is a post-Olalde et al opinion, too, which I found surprising. I wondered how anyone could get that out of Olalde et al's paper The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe. I mean, look at just the title of the paper. Seems kind of hard to miss. If Bell Beaker affected the genomic transformation of NW Europe, it was hardly "a local development and not [a] genetically spread cultural event".

    Anyway, I guess if one takes the point of view of early Iberian Bell Beaker, i.e., that Bell Beaker originated in Iberia, then it looks like Bell Beaker was "not [a] genetically spread cultural event". After all, here is what Olalde et al say about early Iberian Bell Beaker (from Olalde et al, page 3):

    In contrast to the Corded Ware Complex, which has previously been identified as arriving in central Europe following migration from the east, we observe limited genetic affinity between Iberian and central European Beaker Complex-associated individuals, and thus exclude migration as a significant mechanism of spread between these two regions.
    However, Olalde et al definitely do NOT conclude that non-Iberian Bell Beaker was "not [a] genetically spread cultural event".

    However, human migration did have an important role in the further dissemination of the Beaker Complex, which we document most clearly in Britain using data from 80 newly reported individuals dating to 3900–1200 BCE. British Neolithic farmers were genetically similar to contemporary populations in continental Europe and in particular to Neolithic Iberians, suggesting that a portion of the farmer ancestry in Britain came from the Mediterranean rather than the Danubian route of farming expansion. Beginning with the Beaker period, and continuing through the Bronze Age, all British individuals harboured high proportions of Steppe ancestry and were genetically closely related to Beaker-associated individuals from the Lower Rhine area. We use these observations to show that the spread of the Beaker Complex to Britain was mediated by migration from the continent that replaced >90% of Britain’s Neolithic gene pool within a few hundred years, continuing the process that brought Steppe ancestry into central and northern Europe 400 years earlier.
    With regard to R1b-P312 and its spread, Olalde et al say that Bell Beaker apparently played a key role.

    From Olalde et al, page 4:

    For individuals in whom we could determine the R1b subtype (n=22), we found that all but one had the derived allele for the R1b-S116/P312 polymorphism, which defines the dominant subtype in western Europe today. Finding this early predominance of the R1b-S116/P312 polymorphism in ancient individuals from central and northwestern Europe suggests that people associated with the Beaker Complex may have had an important role in the dissemination of this lineage throughout most of its present-day distribution.
    What we have in Olalde et al is evidence that what some us of suspected all along is in fact true, that there were two different kinds of Bell Beaker people: 1) very early Iberian, who buried their dead in collective megalithic Neolithic tombs, and whose skeletons were short in stature, long headed (dolichocephalic), and gracile, and 2) Kurgan Bell Beaker, who buried their dead in single graves in pits under a round burial mound, with weapons and horse bones, and whose skeletons were tall and robust, with round (brachycephalic) heads.

    So, Bell Beaker people did not spread to the rest of Europe from Iberia (Olalde et al, page 8):

    In central Europe, Steppe ancestry was widespread and we can exclude a substantial contribution from Iberian Beaker Complex-associated individuals, contradicting initial suggestions of gene flow between these groups based on analysis of mtDNA and dental morphology.
    Elsewhere, however, Bell Beaker and R1b-P312 were spread by migration (Olalde et al, pages 8-9):

    Although cultural transmission seems to have been the main mechanism for the diffusion of the Beaker Complex between Iberia and central Europe, other parts of the Beaker Complex expansion were driven to a substantial extent by migration, with Beaker-associated burials in southern France, northern Italy, and Britain, representing the earliest occurrence of Steppe-related ancestry so far known in all three regions. This genomic transformation is clearest in Britain due to our dense genetic time transect. The earliest Beaker pots found in Britain show influences from both the lower Rhine region and the Atlantic façade of western Europe. However, such dual influence is not mirrored in the genetic data, as the British Beaker Complex individuals were genetically most similar to lower Rhine individuals from the Netherlands. The arrival of the Beaker Complex precipitated a profound demographic transformation in Britain, exemplified by the absence of individuals in our dataset without large amounts of Steppe-related ancestry after 2400 BCE.
    So very early Iberian Bell Beaker appears to be a Mediterranean Neolithic farmer culture that was not spread to other parts of Europe by migration. Non-Iberian, Kurgan Bell Beaker, however, was spread from east-central Europe to the rest of Europe by migration and was evidently the vehicle of the spread of R1b-P312.
    Last edited by rms2; 07-02-2017 at 07:14 PM.

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    Now the question seems to be, how did R1b-P312 get into non-Iberian Bell Beaker? Where did it come from before Bell Beaker? Yamnaya, as would seem to be suggested by the ideas of Marija Gimbutas and Volker Heyd? Or Corded Ware, as others have suggested? Still others suggest that R1b-P312 may represent a population of Neolithic farmers, sprung from Neolithized hunter-gatherer antecedents, who were kurganized, perhaps through contact and intermarriage with Corded Ware people.

    I would like to see the question of the origin of P312 thoroughly investigated through ancient dna studies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Recently someone posted his opinion about Bell Beaker that it was "a local development and not [a] genetically spread cultural event". That is a post-Olalde et al opinion, too, which I found surprising. I wondered how anyone could get that out of Olalde et al's paper The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe. I mean, look at just the title of the paper. Seems kind of hard to miss. If Bell Beaker affected the genomic transformation of NW Europe, it was hardly "a local development and not [a] genetically spread cultural event".

    Anyway, I guess if one takes the point of view of early Iberian Bell Beaker, i.e., that Bell Beaker originated in Iberia, then it looks like Bell Beaker was "not [a] genetically spread cultural event". After all, here is what Olalde et al say about early Iberian Bell Beaker (from Olalde et al, page 3):



    However, Olalde et al definitely do NOT conclude that non-Iberian Bell Beaker was "not [a] genetically spread cultural event".



    With regard to R1b-P312 and its spread, Olalde et al say that Bell Beaker apparently played a key role.

    From Olalde et al, page 4:



    What we have in Olalde et al is evidence that what some us of suspected all along is in fact true, that there were two different kinds of Bell Beaker people: 1) very early Iberian, who buried their dead in collective megalithic Neolithic tombs, and whose skeletons were short in stature, long headed (dolichocephalic), and gracile, and 2) Kurgan Bell Beaker, who buried their dead in single graves in pits under a round burial mound, with weapons and horse bones, and whose skeletons were tall and robust, with round (brachycephalic) heads.

    So, Bell Beaker people did not spread to the rest of Europe from Iberia (Olalde et al, page 8):



    Elsewhere, however, Bell Beaker and R1b-P312 were spread by migration (Olalde et al, pages 8-9):



    So very early Iberian Bell Beaker appears to be a Mediterranean Neolithic farmer culture that was not spread to other parts of Europe by migration. Non-Iberian, Kurgan Bell Beaker, however, was spread from east-central Europe to the rest of Europe by migration and was evidently the vehicle of the spread of R1b-P312.
    Yep I could never see anything steppe derived in the early beaker culture of Iberia. the only exception is the pottery which some see as derived from central Europe but even that is very much disputed. FWIW I think it does represent an influence from central Europe but just a few females and of little genetic or cultural influence. I suspect they flowed along the Grand Pressigny flint trade network which in total stretched from NW Germany and the north Alps to the French-Spanish border c 2900-2500BC

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    IF there s a link between L11 or P312 and the Dutch single grave CW culture and P312 beaker really replaced 90% of genes in the isles then that makes the fact that the Celtic fringe today (despite only modest Germanic input)) autosomally cluster with Holland, Denmark etc highly interesting. Is this because the beaker groups who went to the isles and the CW groups of the coastal area around Holland were genetically near identical? There is still a coastal / landlocked division in the autosomal genetics of northern half of Europe as far as I can see.
    Last edited by alan; 07-03-2017 at 07:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    IF there s a link between L11 or P312 and the Dutch single grave CW culture and P312 beaker really replaced 90% of genes in the isles then that makes the fact that the Celtic fringe today (despite only modest Germanic input)) autosomally cluster with Holland, Denmark etc highly interesting. Is this because the beaker groups who went to the isles and the CW groups of the coastal area around Holland were genetically near identical? There is still a coastal / landlocked division in the autosomal genetics of northern half of Europe as far as I can see.
    This may be solely anecdotal, but my father's closest autosomal matches are listed as North Dutch/North German. Our paternal lineage is believed to originate from eastern England. I think this affinity has something to do with an ancient connection to the North Sea littoral, possibly via the Bell Beakers.
    yDNA: R1b-BY17850 (England?)
    Maternal grandfather (MDKA: Johannes Nicholas Schaefer, Saxony-Anhalt, Germany) - yDNA: R1b-U106, mtDNA: T2b
    Maternal grandmother (MDKA: Angelina Centrella, Avellino, Campania, Italia) - mtDNA: HV4a1


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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    . . . Still others suggest that R1b-P312 may represent a population of Neolithic farmers, sprung from Neolithized hunter-gatherer antecedents, who were kurganized, perhaps through contact and intermarriage with Corded Ware people . . .
    This last idea seems the least likely to me, i.e., that P312 represents Neolithic farmers who were converted to a steppe lifestyle by Corded Ware brides.

    Does it seem likely that Corded Ware women, taken into the Bell Beaker community, would convert their husbands to a patriarchal culture, with a pantheon of male gods?

    This is from page 153 of Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language:

    But Warren DeBoer has shown that wives who marry into a foreign tribe among tribal societies often feel so exposed and insecure that they become hyper-correct imitators of their new cultural mores rather than a source of innovation.
    The following are some points I have made before but that are worth repeating.

    How exactly would women create the warlike, horse-riding, patriarchal, Indo-European kurgan culture that is Bell Beaker by marrying Neolithic farmers? (And farmers belonging almost exclusively to a y-haplogroup thus far not found among Neolithic farmers, R1b-L51.)

    If those farmers formed that culture by learning from their R1a fathers-in-law and brothers-in-law, how did they keep it so overwhelmingly R1b? Surely cultures in such close cooperation and collaboration would exchange daughters and sons, would they not? Does one-way exogamy, with the exclusive target being R1b males, make any sense?

    Usually whichever sex is the local part of patri-local or matri-local has the culture that dominates, yet the idea that CW women imparted the steppe autosomal dna to Bell Beaker reverses that. It has women going to live with Neolithic farmer husbands and, instead of adopting their farmer ways, converting their husbands to the ways of their CW fathers and brothers. Recall the quote from Anthony above.

    This is from page 66 of the Olalde et al Supplementary Information:

    Overall, Y-chromosome haplogroups are highly correlated with steppe ancestry proportions in the nuclear genome . . .

    Six individuals outside Iberia without R1b Y-chromosomes were excavated in Hungary (n=4), Germany (n=1) and England (n=1). Interestingly, most of these individuals presented low amounts of steppe ancestry in the nuclear genome as compared to other individuals from the same regions (Figure S1).
    If R1b-P312 came from Neolithic farmers, how is it that R1b-P312 is correlated with steppe ancestry in Bell Beaker, and non-R1b is correlated with low to non-steppe ancestry?

    Remember, too, that P312 is under L23, L51, and L151, and L23 has been found in Yamnaya, mostly in the form of R1b-Z2103, which is a brother clade to L51 under L23.

    Here are the non-Iberian Bell Beaker individuals with low to no steppe dna:

    1. E09538 Y-DNA: G2a 2471–2300 calBC Unterer Talweg 58-62 (Augsburg, Germany) Low steppe dna (BB_Germany_BAV)

    2. I1767 Y-DNA: I2a 2200–1970 calBC Windmill Fields, Ingleby Barwick (Stockton-on-Tees, County Durham, England) Moderately low steppe dna (BB_England_NOR)

    3. I2364 Y-DNA: H2 2470–2060 calBC Budapest-Békásmegyer, Királyok útja (former Vöröshadsereg útja) (Hungary) Very low steppe dna (BB_Hungary_Bud1)

    4. I2741 Y-DNA: I2a 2458–2154 calBC Szigetszentmiklós, Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő (Hungary) Very low steppe dna (BB-Hungary_Szi1)

    5. I3528 Y-DNA: G2a 2559–2301 calBC Budakalász, Csajerszke (M0 Site 12) (Hungary) Moderately low steppe dna (BB_Hungary_HUN)

    Only one non-R1b Bell Beaker sample had significant steppe dna. That was I2786 Y-DNA: I2a 2459–2206 calBC Szigetszentmiklós, Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő (Hungary).
    Last edited by rms2; 07-04-2017 at 12:49 PM. Reason: To fix awkward wording.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    This last idea seems the least likely to me, i.e., that P312 represents Neolithic farmers who were converted to a steppe lifestyle by Corded Ware brides.

    Does it seem likely that Corded Ware women, taken into the Bell Beaker community, would convert their husbands to a patriarchal culture, with a pantheon of male gods?

    This is from page 153 of Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language:



    The following are some points I have made before but that are worth repeating.

    How exactly would women create the warlike, horse-riding, patriarchal, Indo-European kurgan culture that is Bell Beaker by marrying Neolithic farmers? (And farmers belonging almost exclusively to a y-haplogroup thus far not found among Neolithic farmers, R1b-L51.)

    If those farmers formed that culture by learning from their R1a fathers-in-law and brothers-in-law, how did they keep it so overwhelmingly R1b? Surely cultures in such close cooperation and collaboration would exchange daughters and sons, would they not? Does one-way exogamy, with the exclusive target being R1b males, make any sense?

    Usually whichever sex is the local part of patri-local or matri-local has the culture that dominates, yet the idea that CW women imparted the steppe autosomal dna to Bell Beaker reverses that. It has women going to live with Neolithic farmer husbands and, instead of adopting their farmer ways, converting their husbands to the ways of their CW fathers and brothers. Recall the quote from Anthony above.

    This is from page 66 of the Olalde et al Supplementary Information:



    If R1b-P312 came from Neolithic farmers, how is it that R1b-P312 is correlated with steppe ancestry in Bell Beaker, and non-R1b is correlated with low to non-steppe ancestry?

    Remember, too, that P312 is under L23, L51, and L151, and L23 has been found in Yamnaya, mostly in the form of R1b-Z2103, which is a brother clade to L51 under L23.

    Here are the non-Iberian Bell Beaker individuals with low to no steppe dna:

    1. E09538 Y-DNA: G2a 2471–2300 calBC Unterer Talweg 58-62 (Augsburg, Germany) Low steppe dna (BB_Germany_BAV)

    2. I1767 Y-DNA: I2a 2200–1970 calBC Windmill Fields, Ingleby Barwick (Stockton-on-Tees, County Durham, England) Moderately low steppe dna (BB_England_NOR)

    3. I2364 Y-DNA: H2 2470–2060 calBC Budapest-Békásmegyer, Királyok útja (former Vöröshadsereg útja) (Hungary) Very low steppe dna (BB_Hungary_Bud1)

    4. I2741 Y-DNA: I2a 2458–2154 calBC Szigetszentmiklós, Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő (Hungary) Very low steppe dna (BB-Hungary_Szi1)

    5. I3528 Y-DNA: G2a 2559–2301 calBC Budakalász, Csajerszke (M0 Site 12) (Hungary) Moderately low steppe dna (BB_Hungary_HUN)

    Only one non-R1b Bell Beaker sample had significant steppe dna. That was I2786 Y-DNA: I2a 2459–2206 calBC Szigetszentmiklós, Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő (Hungary).
    What these demonstrate to me is that as well as the high steppe beaker folks who existed for centuries there were other groups nearby that were predominant native farmers genetically speaking .Also for beaker people (and even beyond into the food vessel era at Rathlin) to have remained so distinct from the farmers across 5 centuries suggests when they married they strongly preferred it to be with other beaker people rather than natives. Obviously the above list show exceptions but some beaker groups clearly remained aloof from the general population. I suspect this may be down to the beaker people marrying off their daughters to other beaker people in the network as a major tool of maintaing these network alliances. So marrying your daughter off was a major asset and opportunity not to be wasted and normally would be married of to other important beaker families in the network chain. If that was the norm then there may have been a long period for centuries where there were 2 genetically district populations living near each other. A modern example would be Irish travellers who marry almost exclusively among other traveller families rather than the larger settled populations around them. Curiously Irish travellers were associated with copper working too
    Last edited by alan; 07-04-2017 at 03:43 PM.

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    I'm a little troubled by the very frequent use of "Ukraine" to mean "the steppe," or the circumpontic whatever, or really anything between Samara and the plains of Hungary. That terminology or shorthand is really based on an aDNA coverage gap, more than something we actually know from having sampled aDNA globally and thoroughly. But the term itself to some extent presupposes that the R1b route out of the said steppe was the Danube, and the Iron Gates. Then we quibble about which century saw that migration, which archaeological culture was dominant in that century, and what YDNA most likely was found in that century, on one or the other side of those Gates (Danube River gorge).

    So anyway I copied a link to Rozenfeld's map that rms2 posted yesterday, blew it up to a reasonable size, and made a screen shot of the coverage gap, centered on the tiny village of "Moscow" (indicated, on this map, by the metropolitan area of greater Podolsk). This is the area, I think a significant one, from which so far we have no aDNA data pertaining to the Y chromosome. My guess is, it was not all R1a throughout the late neolithic, copper and bronze ages. My guess may be wrong, but its wrongness is not proven by available sampling.

    Screen Shot 2017-07-03 at 9.05.46 AM.png

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    I agree with you that Pontic steppe or north of the Black Sea or something like them are probably better terms than Ukraine, although the first use of Ukraine in this thread was yours above. But I know I have used it a number of times recently in other threads here in referring to the R1b Ice Age Refuge, so mea culpa. I don't think Ukraine is necessarily a bad descriptor, but the others may be better.

    I just changed my ways and heeded your advice, however:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post255679

    Note: When I have used Ukraine in the past, I meant the area of the present-day nation of that name, not the steppe all the way to the Ural River, the steppe north of the Caspian, etc.; in other words, I would not use Ukraine to refer to the entire Pontic-Caspian steppe.
    Last edited by rms2; 07-04-2017 at 07:04 PM. Reason: To add the note above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    I'm a little troubled by the very frequent use of "Ukraine" to mean "the steppe," or the circumpontic whatever, or really anything between Samara and the plains of Hungary. That terminology or shorthand is really based on an aDNA coverage gap, more than something we actually know from having sampled aDNA globally and thoroughly. But the term itself to some extent presupposes that the R1b route out of the said steppe was the Danube, and the Iron Gates. Then we quibble about which century saw that migration, which archaeological culture was dominant in that century, and what YDNA most likely was found in that century, on one or the other side of those Gates (Danube River gorge).

    So anyway I copied a link to Rozenfeld's map that rms2 posted yesterday, blew it up to a reasonable size, and made a screen shot of the coverage gap, centered on the tiny village of "Moscow" (indicated, on this map, by the metropolitan area of greater Podolsk). This is the area, I think a significant one, from which so far we have no aDNA data pertaining to the Y chromosome. My guess is, it was not all R1a throughout the late neolithic, copper and bronze ages. My guess may be wrong, but its wrongness is not proven by available sampling.

    Screen Shot 2017-07-03 at 9.05.46 AM.png
    The steppe areas of modern day Ukraine should better not be called "Ukraine" when we talk about pre-modern times because this is giving a wrong impression about population dynamics in this region and this areas became just recently part of Ukraine or Russia. Historical Ukraine (Kiev, Poltava, Podolia, Chernihiv, Galicia, Volhynia,..) was Corded Ware territory and the Middle Dnjepr culture in Northern Ukraine and Southern Belarus played a big role in the early expansion of Corded Ware at least eastwards (Fatyanovo–Balanovo, Abashevo,..). But the pre-historical Pontic steppe areas of Ukraine were mainly R1b territory with some R1a, I2 and Q. The main reason why R1b was pushed out of the steppe was the expansion of Indo-Iranians from the east, which entered the steppe from the Ural region and were themselves ultimately derived from Corded Ware culture (Middle Dnjepr in my opinion). My impression is that western Yamnaya was also mainly R1b-Z103 but pre-yamnaya southern "Ukraine" would be the birthplase of R1b-L11/P312
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