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Thread: Bell Beaker and the Spread of R1b-P312

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    I'm a little troubled by the very frequent use of "Ukraine" to mean "the steppe," or the circumpontic whatever, or really anything between Samara and the plains of Hungary. That terminology or shorthand is really based on an aDNA coverage gap, more than something we actually know from having sampled aDNA globally and thoroughly. But the term itself to some extent presupposes that the R1b route out of the said steppe was the Danube, and the Iron Gates. Then we quibble about which century saw that migration, which archaeological culture was dominant in that century, and what YDNA most likely was found in that century, on one or the other side of those Gates (Danube River gorge).
    ...
    As long as we understand what is being meant I think it is fine. I myself have used the term Khazar steppe even though the Khazars were there only for a limited period. But Khazaria geographically covers the west Eurasian steppe region.

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  3. #12
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    Anyone got a table or map of all prehistoric P312 discovered so far ?

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Anyone got a table or map of all prehistoric P312 discovered so far ?
    Here is my Google sheet of Kurgan Bell Beaker R1b. It includes all the Kurgan Bell Beaker R1b, not just P312, but the P312 stuff is there.

    Interesting to me that I1382 (R1b-P312) has the same mtDNA haplogroup I do: U5a2c3a. I don't see that from anyone very often, and there it is in a Bell Beaker man from Moselle, France. I4253 from Malopolska, Poland, (R1b-M269) is U5a2c. Like I said, interesting.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  6. #14
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    Canada England Wales Netherlands France Cornwall
    Any word on the Olalde data being released?
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

  7. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Any word on the Olalde data being released?
    Good question... data from 170 or 196 samples...

  8. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Any word on the Olalde data being released?
    Maybe they're waiting for those additional samples from Sion and for their second shot at the Amesbury Archer.

    Personally, I really hope they succeed with the Archer this time.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  9. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Maybe they're waiting for those additional samples from Sion and for their second shot at the Amesbury Archer.

    Personally, I really hope they succeed with the Archer this time.
    I really agree with you...

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  11. #18
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    We do have the Archer of France at least:

    bell beaker_archer of france I1390 Olalde et al 2017.jpg
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  12. #19
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    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    I want to talk about the various Bell Beaker models and where they stand currently, given the Bell Beaker dna test results, especially those from Olalde et al.

    First, the Spanish Model.

    This is from page 475 of "Bell Beakers from West to East" in Ancient Europe, 8000 B.C. to A.D. 1000: Encyclopedia of the Barbarian World; Bogucki, Peter and Crabtree, Pam J., editors; New York: Scribner and Sons, 2004 (available online as an e-book here):

    The first all-encompassing model for explaining the genesis of Bell Beakers was proposed by Spanish researchers Pedro Bosch-Gimpera (1926) and Alberto del Castillo Yurrita (1928). In archaeological literature, their theory is called the Spanish Model. It stated that the Bell Beaker phenomenon started on the Iberian Peninsula and from there its peoples, practicing trade, expanded as far as central Europe.
    It seems to me Olalde et al shot down the Spanish Model, unless one wants to argue that the Beaker culture spread from Iberia. In terms of people, however, it is apparent that Bell Beaker did not spread from Iberia.

    The Spanish Model got a shot in the arm from the Müller and van Willigen (2001) radiocarbon dates, which seem to indicate that Iberian Bell Beaker sites are the oldest. Those dates aren't without controversy. Jan Lanting, a prominent advocate of the Dutch Model of Bell Beaker, had this to say about Müller and van Willigen's 14C dates:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Lanting
    I see no reason to renounce our 1976 hypothesis of the special relationship of AOO and Single Grave beakers in the Netherlands, Belgium and Western Germany, and of the origin of the Maritime bell beaker in the same area. I do not believe in the results of the study by Müller & Van Willigen (2001), who use radiocarbon dates produced by a series of laboratories (without critical analysis of find circumstances, degree of association, laboratory procedures etc., and without analysis of the dated pottery) to postulate an origin of the earliest bell beakers on the Iberian peninsula around 2900 BC (i.e. even before the Single Grave culture came into existence in Central Europe!). A recent study by Needham (2005), based to a large extent on Müller & Van Willigen is rejected as well.
    The above is from page 98 of Lanting, Jan N., The North Netherlands/Northwest German Bell Beaker group: Cultural Background, Typology of the Earthwork, Date, Distribution and Burial Ritual (2008).
    Last edited by rms2; 08-22-2017 at 06:05 PM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  14. #20
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    Now the Dutch Model.

    This is from page 476 of "Bell Beakers from West to East" in Ancient Europe, 8000 B.C. to A.D. 1000: Encyclopedia of the Barbarian World; Bogucki, Peter and Crabtree, Pam J., editors; New York: Scribner and Sons, 2004:

    Later research, concentrating on the typology of finds in various regions, complicated the picture of Bell Beakers. A breakthrough in this regard were the studies published in 1955 by Dutch researchers J. D. (Johannes D.) van der Waals and Willem Glasbergen that presented a scheme of evolution for the bell beaker vessels. In their opinion this form developed from the beakers of the Corded Ware culture on the Lower Rhine. In the literature this view is known as the Dutch Model.
    This has the following obvious advantages:

    1) Corded Ware pottery in the Netherlands and NW Germany, especially Protruding Foot Beaker, really looks like Bell Beaker pottery;

    2) Corded Ware burial practices are very similar to non-Iberian Bell Beaker burial practices; and

    3) Corded Ware is a steppe-derived culture, and dna test results reveal a high level of steppe dna in Bell Beaker.


    I must confess the Dutch Model really commends itself to me. My opinion is currently wavering between it and Gimbutas' ideas on the origin of Bell Beaker.

    We don't have any ancient y-dna from Dutch and/or NW German Single Grave Corded Ware, including Protruding Foot Beaker. In fact, we don't any ancient y-dna from most of the cultural variants of Corded Ware.

    I have a couple of more models to mention, but I guess I will stop there in case anyone wants to comment.
    Last edited by rms2; 08-22-2017 at 06:06 PM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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     Dewsloth (08-22-2017),  jdean (08-22-2017),  kostoffj (08-22-2017)

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