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Thread: L277 and L584

  1. #1
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    L277 and L584

    I've sponsored a Robins/Robinson whose ancestors are from Scotland. His haplogroup is R-L23 (L51-). Somehow I've missed the discussions about L277 and L584. Are these new SNPs European? Is there any reasonable chance that we would benefit by testing for these SNPs?
    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarman View Post
    I've sponsored a Robins/Robinson whose ancestors are from Scotland. His haplogroup is R-L23 (L51-). Somehow I've missed the discussions about L277 and L584. Are these new SNPs European? Is there any reasonable chance that we would benefit by testing for these SNPs?
    Thanks.
    Jarman,

    These two SNP are not very thoroughly tested yet, so I'm not sure what the odds are for your Robins/Robinson.

    We do have European mean positive for each of these (well, one or the other: no one is positive for both so far). Most men who are positive for L277 or L584 - though not all such men - seem to have very close Jewish, Assyrian, or Armenian matches, but men who are negative for both seem much less likely to have those ancestries.

    So there may be some benefit to having Europeans test both markers, along with Z2103 and Z2105. Even negative results might be informative.

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     David (09-14-2012)

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    Jarman:

    How far back does the Scottish pedigree go? As someone with both Scottish and Jewish ancestry, I'll say that while Robinson is a very common Borders area surname, if the pedigree is short, it may be an anglicization of Rubens, Rubenstein, or a similar potentially Jewish name.

    In Scotland, the name Robertson is very much more common. Robins also seems out of place there. So whether you do get an unexpected positive result or not, there may have been a slight name change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJL View Post
    Jarman:

    How far back does the Scottish pedigree go? As someone with both Scottish and Jewish ancestry, I'll say that while Robinson is a very common Borders area surname, if the pedigree is short, it may be an anglicization of Rubens, Rubenstein, or a similar potentially Jewish name.

    In Scotland, the name Robertson is very much more common. Robins also seems out of place there. So whether you do get an unexpected positive result or not, there may have been a slight name change.
    Daniel Robinson (or Robeson) b. c1627 Scotland, d. c1714 New Jersey. The name was shortened to Robins in NJ - very well documented in deeds and land ownership. I don't know where in Scotland he was from - no useful DNA matches yet.

  6. #5
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    Thanks -- with the Robeson form, I expect he may match some Robertsons.
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

  7. #6
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    There are 18 categories within the Jewish R1b project. Many of it's members would be considered neither L277 or L584-.

    In fact 24 members are L277- and L584+.45475 from Lithuania is L23+ L584+ L943+ L944+ L945+ & L946+ (Ashkenazi "Group C")--R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project) You also have members who are L584- and L277+

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    L277 has been found in Central Europe and as far away as East India.

    L277and L584 are not exclusive to any group. They belong to a much larger family R-M269+ and L23+ 110+/- million Europeans .
    Last edited by Silesian; 09-14-2012 at 05:55 AM.

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    world.topo.bathy_L277_L577_5-16-2013.jpg

    This is a map of L227+ and L587+ distribution in the old world. The data comes from Mikes R1b Early Haplotypes file and a few more found in FTDNA projects. It is only meant to give a general idea of the distribution of these snps, not every mark is exact.
    The area around Lake Van and Lake Urmia is interesting. A few groups are noted. The Armenian project and Assyrian project each have 10 L584+ markers on the map. The Jewish project has three with two from Aleppo likely to be Syrian Sephardic. L277+ includes 2 from the Jewish project and 1 each for the R-Arabia, Armenian and Assyrian projects. Note that L277+ extends from Kolkata to The Hague.
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    Last edited by Joe B; 05-17-2013 at 06:52 AM.

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  11. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    world.topo.bathy_L277_L577_5-16-2013.jpg

    This is a map of L227+ and L587+ distribution in the old world. The data comes from Mikes R1b Early Haplotypes file and a few more found in FTDNA projects. It is only meant to give a general idea of the distribution of these snps, not every mark is exact.
    The area around Lake Van and Lake Urmia is interesting. A few groups are noted. The Armenian project and Assyrian project each have 10 L584+ markers on the map. The Jewish project has three with two from Aleppo likely to be Syrian Sephardic. L277+ includes 2 from the Jewish project and 1 each for the R-Arabia, Armenian and Assyrian projects. Note that L277+ extends from Kolkata to The Hague.
    Very interesting. Thank you for posting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    world.topo.bathy_L277_L577_.jpg

    This is a map of L227+ and L587+ distribution in the old world. The data comes from Mikes R1b Early Haplotypes file and a few more found in FTDNA projects. It is only meant to give a general idea of the distribution of these snps, not every mark is exact.
    The area around Lake Van and Lake Urmia is interesting. Within L584+ (n=28) and L277+ (n=11) a few groups are noted. The Armenian project and Assyrian project each have 10 L584+ markers on the map. The Jewish project has three and two possibly related kits from Aleppo are likely to be Syrian Sephardic. L277+ includes 2 from the Jewish project and 1 each for the R-Arabia, Armenian and Assyrian projects. Note that L277+ extends from Kolkata to The Hague.
    Thanks for the thumbs up for the L227+ and L584+ distribution map. As you may know, I'm new to this and bound to make mistakes. Thus the two maps with two different n values for L584+. The correct map reads L227+ n=11 and L584+ n=28 and I have edited the qoute in this message to reflect that. The correct map is within the qoute too.
    If someone wants to repost the map so that it is visible to non-members or for other reasons, feel free to. This map is public domain. Thanks, Joe
    Last edited by Joe B; 05-18-2013 at 08:49 PM.

  13. #10
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    Thanks, Joe. I will certainly send this map to my Syrian Sephardi L584 cousin.
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

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