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Thread: R1-M458 - could it be spread by Sauromats and Alans?

  1. #1
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    Question R1-M458 - could it be spread by Sauromats and Alans?

    1. M458 is widly spread in Central and Eastern Europe. Could be even a remain of Cordeds.
    2. Small clades scattered across whole Europe suggest that it is pre-slavic hg.
    3. Only two clades are main, but they are +/- 2000 years old, so potentially, only they could be slavic.
    4. Rest is very doubtfull.
    5. The oldest clades are find in such places like Wales, Sardinia, Kosovo, Balkaria and Vyat'ka.
    6. One in Poland of unknown origin, and mine which actually is not from Poland, but from the West.
    It could be from the Brandenburgia, Swabia/Bavaria or even Latium/Apulia or something between.
    7. So I belive, that M458 is rather of preslavic origin in general, and these examples could be
    spread even in deep antiquity, for example with first IE migrations or by many other possibilites,
    like the Goths, Völkerwanderung, relocations of people during Roman period, slave trade, single
    personal migrations, even with Vikings (where Slavs were as well) and so on, many events fit
    to almost all of that distant locations.
    8. But lastly I started wondering if this could not be spreaded by Sauromatians and/or Alanians.
    9. Why? Becasue:

    a) High frequences of M458 are outside of core slavic lands like caucasian Karachays (27,5%),
    Balkars (23,5%) where is one of the oldest clades probably close to mine, 7,8% among Black
    (Kara)Nogays, 3,4% among Abazins -also from the northern Caucasus.

    b) And these generally are former lands of Alania. It is quite unprobable, that all of it is from
    Russians, especially, that M458 is not their main clade, and that caucasian nations are quite
    hermetic groups, not happy about mixing with others (at least they claim such thing).

    c) Traditionaly part of Slavs is descendning from Sauromatians, and even historically it is/was
    quite serious possibility and hypothesy. Lastly was even found scythian settlement in Poland,
    so later sauromatian influence, combined with serbian and croatian potential sauromatianess,
    can explain easly, why M458 is spread among Slavs.

    d) Even this guy from Viat'ka not necessarly has to be originaly from Slavs, becasue that area
    (or at least it's direct southern neighbours) was settled by Sauromatians when they existed.

    e) M458 on Sardinia, can be also easly explain by patricipation of Alans in Vandalian Kingdom in
    northern Africa, which did include in it's realm also the Sardinia island... It can also explain totaly
    hypothetical origin of mine from Italy, based on onomastic ties and historical timing.

    f) Guy from Wales can be also easly explained, especially by these who did watch "King Arthur"
    2004 But historically it was confirmed that some Sauromatians did serve as militaries in Britain.

    g) Guy from Kosovo could be a remains of such romanized Sauromatians or
    came with Serbs - who are consider in their past as sarmatian subtribe per
    se, and in addition trace back themselves from... Caucasus...

    h) Guy from Poland - a remains of Serbs, Croats or other "polish" slavicized Sauromatians.

    10.So, what do you think about such possibility?
    Last edited by Rethel; 07-12-2017 at 06:05 PM.

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  3. #2
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    Huns, Alans, Goths, all possible I think, with the Huns being the driving force.
    It is often difficult to tell them apart.

  4. #3
    Rethel!

    It may be easy for you to be right. I already thought about it (my mother's father (Kalenyak)was R1-M458 too)

    Three of today's ethnicity would surely alan descendant. The ossets is the Caucasus Russia and Georgia.
    The jasz people in Hungary
    and the jagnobi people in Tajikistan.

    I dont know how common between them the R1-M458, but I'm trying to look at it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuzmosi View Post
    and the jagnobi people in Tajikistan.
    Why Yangobis?

  6. #5
    Because they speak Scythian or Sarmatian language, and they are alan decensdants.

  7. #6
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    A Map provided by Silesian here of Alan and Sarmatian settlements in northern Italy.

    Last edited by Rethel; 10-15-2017 at 06:01 PM.

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  9. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    1. M458 is widly spread in Central and Eastern Europe. Could be even a remain of Cordeds.

    10.So, what do you think about such possibility?
    For the first time I had a look at the M458 tree, maybe there is a good chance you are on to something. For example here is R1a that caught my eye R-YP1364*
    [R-YP6048Y32110 * YP6048 TMRCA 1350 ybpinfo
    -id:YF10709HUN [HU-JN]
    If any matches come in from Ossetians IMO good chance. R1b in Poland and Hungarian Jászság DN has this signature TMRCA.
    The Chinese one is also interesting, could be great prospect.
    R-FGC66325FGC66325 * FGC66342 * FGC66336+2 SNPs, TMRCA 1500 ybpinfo
    id:YF10484CHN [CN-11]
    id:YF06604POL [PL-MA]

    https://yfull.com/tree/R-M458/

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    My closest matches look like that.
    It seems to be too much widly spread to be of slavic origin - even if
    theoretically could be - especially, that we splitted from the M458*
    at the begining - 3000 years BEFORE Slavs were known to the World.
    All places could fit to Cordeds, Sarmatians, Goths and maybe others.



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  13. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    My closest matches look like that.
    [/img]
    Your map includes some incorrect data. The Sardinian M458 lineage belongs to clade PF7521, so it is as distantly related to you as all remaining PF7521 lineages, including those from huge Slavic clades CTS11962 and L260, among others, so there is nothing that would make those Sardinians from subclade PF6188 your "closest matches". Also, there is currently no data that would demonstrate that the M458(xPF7521) lineage from Wales is more closely related to you than all those numerous Slavic lineages from clades CTS11962 and L260.

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  15. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    My closest matches look like that.
    It seems to be too much widly spread to be of slavic origin - even if
    theoretically could be - especially, that we splitted from the M458*
    at the begining - 3000 years BEFORE Slavs were known to the World.
    All places could fit to Cordeds, Sarmatians, Goths and maybe others.


    Good work brother!
    Keep in mind this is speculation. However the following R1a and R1b snps are parallel TMRCA to our branch [Mis and myself of R1b-593/9219+] and found in the same regions known for Scythians/Sarmatians/Alans. It would be interesting if they did not both[ R1a and R1b] originate in ancient kurgans further East around the Scythians/Sarmatians/Alans ancient home lands around Ossetians.
    https://yfull.com/tree/R-M458/
    It will be important to know your snp.
    For example -R1a-snp's 300-600 AD+/- from Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok County by yfull.
    R-YP6048 Y32110 * TMRCA 1350 ybpinfo id:YF10709HUN [HU-JN]
    R-YP1364, TMRCA 1700 ybpinfoR-YP1364*id:YF10038HUN [HU-JN]
    Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok County and Jászberény, Hungary
    R1b-Z2103 parallel branch Jászberény, Hungary https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ag?iframe=ymap
    https://tools.wmflabs.org/geohack/ge...HU_type:adm1st
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A...Szolnok_County
    The county is named after the Ossetians (Jasz) and Cumans (Kun) who settled there, along with Szolnok.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A1szber%C3%A9ny
    Around 400 to 300 B.C. traces of Celtic people coming from the west are found in the Jászság.[4] Celtic graveyards were found near Jászberény at Hajta and Jászjákohalma.[4] During the first century A.D. Iatzygic tribes migrated from Sarmatia to the later Jászság.[4] After being defeated by the Romans during the Marcomannic Wars, the Iazyges paid tribute to Rome and they became a part of the Roman border-defence at the Limes Sarmatiae. Their settlements can be still found during the invasion of the Huns in the 5th century A.D.[4] In the middle of the 6th. century, Eurasian Avars began to settle the Jász-region who in turn were pushed away around 895 by the immigrating Hungarians.[4]
    Look for clues of R1a M458 Scythian/Sarmatian/Alan/around Ribchester. Brother clade of R1b-9219+.
    As for Hungary here are the Roman defensive lines.
    Last edited by Silesian; 10-15-2017 at 07:47 PM.

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