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Thread: Way back when P312* started looking like Z196, until DF27 was discovered

  1. #1
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    Way back when P312* started looking like Z196, until DF27 was discovered

    My caption is a little ironic, speaking about a time span of perhaps seven years. But the key discussions took place on "DNA-Forums," a site that is only accessible (if at all) by way of the Wayback Machine.

    As it happened, the transitions in question were taking place just as I was getting seriously interested. One thing that interested me was the dearth of information about this haplogroup (that turned out to be DF27) to be found in the academic literature -- and also on Eupedia. I tried to bring that forum up to speed by posting a bunch of links (mostly to DNA-Forums, so rather soon, they stopped working). Most of the links at least had some sketchy commentary, to contextualize them. So they might still be a little bit useful, if anybody wonders how we got to the stage at which our current Anthrogenica forum postings (under DF27) began.

    On Eupedia (archived, old postings) we can still read the earliest threads that mention Z196, and soon thereafter DF27. Because they are archived rather than active threads, some of the formatting is lost; this includes the markers that set apart quotations to which one may be responding. A certain amount of duplication is evident, and if you begin with a post that began with a quotation, that may appear to be the work of the person posting -- when, as often as not, it's something to which he or she is objecting. So bear that in mind, if you follow these links.

    This was the first thread I started at Eupedia, "Z196 needs to be in the literature." In it I cited a couple of earlier threads on which I had already posted. I'll paste in the urls for them, below. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive...p/t-26828.html

    On the following "Lack of G2a in Basque" thread, I posted about Z196 as of 31-08-11. There was a little subsequent exchange with "Bodin" between 02-09-11 and 06-09-11. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive...p/t-26727.html

    The other thread mentioned in my longer "Z196" post was "L176.2: When and where did it originate?" My comments began at 17-09-11. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive...p/t-26793.html

    I was reminded of this earlier wild speculation by some recent references to the amber trade, and what that did or didn't have to do with the P312 explosion in central and western Europe.

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  3. #2
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    Nearly three weeks have elapsed during which nobody has commented, or even left "thanks," on this thread. It's had 58 views. It seems not to have been very effective, in this form, so I'll try a different approach. Over the past couple of days I've gone through the main Eupedia thread cited here (the one I started) and extracted a sort of timeline to illustrate what we knew about Z196, and when we knew it. As time went by, the topic of our discussions shifted in large part to the parent level, DF27; and references to its Z196 level shifted in large part to the phylogenetically equivalent SNP Z195.

    In the following series of dated comments, cut from the same Eupedia thread, those that are not marked as quotations are my own. Others are attributed to the forum name used when they were posted. These attributions, and any additional commentary I have written in Aug. 2017, appear within brackets. The final archived post from that Eupedia thread is dated 20 July, 2012. A number of significant events more recent than that date have been added at the end, to bring the timeline closer to the present. This more recent period has been covered as it unfolded, on other Anthrogenica threads. The first of those may have been the following thread started by Mikewww on 20 April, 2013. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...-did-it-expand

    Within three months after these discussions had been shifted to Anthrogenica forums, the separate project for DF27 and Subclades was set up at FTDNA. Mikewww and I have been its administrators, with a short list of two or three co-admins at a time taking part on a more limited or specialized basis, since early July, 2013. Before that (and of course, before its discovery) DF27 was part of the P312* interest group within the P312 project. Attention to the Z196 and DF27 part was especially strong under the administration of Henry Zenker, but he became disabled and could not continue as an administrator. It just seemed to me logical to summarize the earlier steps, a bit, while those can still be reconstructed from the Eupedia archives. And not incidentally, while I can remember where to look.
    ___________________________________

    23 Sept. 2011: Discovered via the 1000 Genomes project about five months ago [April 2011], Z196 is one of the oldest and largest clades of R-P312.

    (same): After SNP testing for Z196 became available at FTDNA in mid-May [2011], a project was set up on DNA-Forums (by Vince Tilroe) to track the results.

    (same): One of the most interesting visual depictions of the complexity of Z196 is Rich Rocca's diagram showing the new SNPs of P312, most of which aren't yet on the ISOGG tree nor on Thomas Krahn's Draft tree. [As of the date of my writing that, 23 Sept. 2011. I believe that the phylogeny of Z196 and its subclades had been revised only slightly when published online in the paper usually cited as "Rocca et al, 2012," discussed below because it was a few days after this Eupedia thread ended.]

    (same): Anyway, you won't see anything about it [Z196] (yet) in the usual sources such as Jean Manco's "Peopling of Europe" site; Maciamo's map section here [Eupedia forums]; the often-cited and much debated studies of Myres, Balaresque, Klyosov, Busby et al; or the books so far published by Bryan Sykes, Barry Cunliffe, and David W. Anthony. It's brand new stuff. One of these days, it will be important stuff; and when you finally read about Z196 in a journal, or see a map of its distribution or variance for the first time, you can say, "I knew that."

    25 Sept. 2011: At some point, I hope to see much more European participation in testing for Z196. And, of course, testing for the new Z series SNPs under Z196 -- for which there are not yet any tests offered.

    (same): The leading serious attempts at dating R1b clades were mentioned just this morning in a DNA-Forums post by Mikewww, and [Marko] Heinila's timetable [the only one that included Z196] is linked. This is part of what Mike said: "One thing that I find interesting is that whether it is Anatole Klyosov, Vince Vizachero, Ken Nordtvedt, Marko Heinila, or Tim Janzen - R-L21 and its brothers like U152 and P312* as well as P312 itself all come out with TMRCA estimates in the [range of] 3500 to 5000 years before present. Perhaps it's just coincidental, but this overlays the Bell Beaker era."

    30 Sept. 2011: News flash: Z196 is now mentioned on Jean Manco's page about the Iron Age:
    [The posted url has been removed, as it no longer works.]
    Note that this response took only a week; one may hope that the academic literature may follow, perhaps within a year or two.
    [Note also that up through this time, DF27 had not been mentioned in any post; it was only discovered during the following month.]

    4 Oct. 2011: [rms2, then administrator of the FTDNA project for R1b-P312, posts] "You might be interested to know that a Russian guy got a Z196+ result this evening: Zavorokhin (Ysearch YZDWK), whose most distant known ancestor was a Cossack from near Talmenka in Siberia.
    I think that is probably the eastern record for Z196 thus far."

    20 Oct. 2011: Just by way of keeping this thread up to date, a recent conference paper by Dr. Steve Harding has more or less incidentally revealed the presence of M153 in Norway, and SRY2627 (M167) in Denmark and Sweden. Since these SNPs are under Z196, on either of its main branches (M153 on the branch with the North-South cluster, and SRY2627 on the L176.2 branch) -- and both have previousky been linked with Iberia, and/or the Basques -- finding them Scandinavia is somewhat unexpected.

    4 Jan. 2012: [Three paragraphs about the North-South Cluster, basically the Z196 subclades now tested by the Z209 SNP Pack at FTDNA. The final paragraph on that begins as follows.] It is distinctly possible that the N/S Cluster, as a whole, represents a larger, older, more northern or more eastern population than the lineage of its L176.2 brother. Probably, not all of those things -- but any of them would be possible.

    (same): Here is one other recent Z196 development -- which hasn't been discussed any further since it was announced on DNA-Forums (11 Nov. 2011, by Rich Rocca): "Also, last month [Oct. 2011], the anonymous researcher found DF27. While this SNP will probably not make its way to the phylogenetic tree any time soon because of its volatility (it has some back mutations in some samples and is heterozygous in others), it is interesting because it seems to be the parent SNP of both Z196 and Z225/Z229. If nothing else, it reinforces the importance of Z196 in Iberia." [The passage in quotation marks is from Rocca's Nov. 2011 post, not my Jan. 2012 one. "The anonymous researcher" was not identified at the time, and I'm not sure that he or she has ever been named. It was one of the team of "citizen scientists" studying R1b data from the 1000 Genomes project, subsequently described in "Rocca et al, 2012."]

    5 Jan. 2012: [Mikewww posts] "Here are the most eastern MDKA's that I can find."
    f40804____ zzzUnkName_______________ R-Z196/L176/SRY______________ zs-unassigned_______ ___ Czech Republic
    f97920____ Zencker__________________ R-Z196*______________________ z1418-NS____________ EP96D___ Czech Republic, Bohemia, Waltersdorf
    f163820___ Both_____________________ R-Z196*______________________ z1418-NS____________ NXP7D___ Hungary
    f155312___ Palkó ___________________ R-Z196*______________________ z1418-NS____________ JUH7U___ Hungary
    f189361___ Kedves___________________ R-Z196/L176**________________ z176-unassigned_____ DT2NU___ Hungary, Heves, Szentdomokos
    f116134___ Schoenberg_______________ R-Z196/L176/SRY______________ zs49010_____________ QZQJ6___ Hungary, Szecseny (Jewish project)
    f138253___ Bielawski________________ R-Z196/L176/SRY______________ zs45818_____________ 6DE2X___ Poland
    f133936___ Wyrwas___________________ R-Z196*______________________ z1418-NS-B__________ ENMN2___ Poland, Greater Poland Voivodeship, , Krotoszyn Co. Kobierno, Dabrowa
    f142712___ Nydecke__________________ R-Z196*______________________ z48714-B____________ 7V3XA___ Poland, Lesser Poland Voivodeship, Wieliczka
    f44479____ Richert__________________ R-Z196_______________________ z1418_______________ YZJSN___ Poland, Lublin Voivodeship, Stężyca
    f60159____ Richert__________________ R-Z196_______________________ z1418_______________ FKYRD___ Poland, Pomeranian Voivodeship, Gdańsk, Oliwa
    fN51984___ Zavorokhin_______________ R-Z196*______________________ z-unassigned________ YZDWK___ Russia
    yX3C37____ Corbett__________________ R-Z196/L176/SRY______________ zs-unassigned_______ X3C37___ Ukraine
    fN40082___ zzzUnkName_______________ R-Z196/L176**________________ z176-unassigned_____ ___ Ukraine
    f10487____ Slugodzki________________ R-Z196/L176*_________________ z176-unassigned_____ SVAG5___ Ukraine, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast, Ottynia
    f1401_____ Chernik__________________ R-Z196**_____________________ z1418-NS____________ YHP6P___ Ukraine, Khmelnytskyi Oblast, Krasilov

    9 Jan. 2012: [Moesan posts] "I can no more go on the DNA Forum (I don't know why, everytime I try to get in it answers me: 'error' ...?)" [I believe this may mark the fact that DNA-Forums had just ceased to exist in an accessible form; and the numerous urls I had been posting on this Eupedia thread, cross-referencing English and French discussions at DNA-Forums, were no longer working links.]

    3 March 2012: Anyone in the North/South Cluster of P312... may be interested in the fact that FTDNA has just made available a SNP test for Z209.

    (same): Added 6 March: the FTDNA Advanced Orders menu now shows five of the new Z-series SNPs in this sequence (Z196+ but L176.2-) available for testing: Z209, Z220, Z216, Z278 (aka rs1469371), Z214.

    17 April 2012: [Dubhthach posts] "As Razyn has pointed out there is a new SNP above Z196 that is known as DF27. Richard Rocca did an analysis of 1000 genomes data from Iberia and posted it on World Families.----SNP FrequencyDF27+ 44.4% (12 of 27) ... DF27* 14.8% (4 of 27) ... Z196+ 25.9% (7 of 27) ... Z225+ 3.7% (1 of 27)L21+ 7.4% (2 of 27)U152+ 7.4% (2 of 27)L23* 3.7% (1 of 27)P312* 3.7% (1 of 27)U106+ 3.7% (1 of 27)Total R1b 70.4% (19 of 27)----- Big chunk of that DF27+ was Z196-"

    11 June 2012: All of the Z196 phylogeny -- which this thread originally addressed -- falls under the newly testable SNP DF27. That one seems to rival U152 and L21 in age and importance.

    20 July 2012: The ISOGG tree for Haplogroup R was radically updated in late June, so the new, much more complex and detailed phylogeny of DF27 and its subclades may now be seen there.
    ___________________

    Additional commentary, not from Eupedia posts:

    24 July 2012: Publication of "Rocca et al, 2012" on the PlosOne website carries the first announcement of DF27 to the broader scientific community, as distinguished from the readership of a few blogs and online forums. See Figure 1 for DF27 and several other clades that had previously been lumped together as P312*, or sometimes P312 (xL21, xU152): http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0041634

    25 July 2012: The Geno2.0 chip test was announced by the Genographic Project, and was to be shipped to the first customers by the end of October. It tested for a reasonable range (of the SNPs then known) from the Z196 side of the DF27 phylogeny. One important shift was the use of Z195, then considered (and still considered) to be equivalent with Z196. It was easier to test reliably on a chip than Z196, although that had already been tested by many FTDNA customers (via Sanger sequencing). References on blogs and forums, on the FTDNA Haplotree displays, and eventually in the scientific literature as that began to emerge, have gradually shifted in the favor of Z195. Phylogenetically, the terms are interchangeable; but they are separate mutations, at different loci on the Y chromosome.

    The first edition of Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys was released in May, 2013. Although the new, more inclusive SNP is not indexed, there is a reference to DF27 (citing "Rocca 2012") on p. 165. I believe that is the earliest reference to DF27 in a hardback book authored by an academic. One more early reference to DF27 (but by a different name, assigned by a different team of scientists) may have appeared in a privately published research paper about the Anglesey Bone Setter. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-nor...wales-15628885

    The report on the Anglesey Bone Setter YDNA project was released to the public in Aug. 2012, revised 4 Sept. 2012. (Unfortunately, the 2012 url for viewing that study online no longer works.) About a dozen new SNPs were discovered in the DNA of a direct male-line descendant of the shipwrecked 18th century Bone Setter (whose adoptive name in Wales was Evan Thomas), numbered by the lab of Dr. James Wilson (then doing business as BritainsDNA) S400 and higher. These were determined to be downstream of S250, the name assigned by the Wilson lab to DF27. Beginning in 2013, the S400 series of SNPS were tested on that lab's Chromo2 chip. They are found in columns ALM and ALN of the "Chromo2-2000" spreadsheet (anonymized results from testing with that chip) that were made public by Dr. Wilson, and announced by Alex Williamson on 19 Feb. 2014, here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post31528

    Coincidentally, Feb. 2014 was the month in which I assumed effective control of FTDNA's R1b-DF27 and Subclades haplogroup project, of which Mikewww and I had jointly been administrators since it was formed in July 2013. Mike did the initial grouping, and related administrative work, until I got up to speed on how to do that. Having found a good many useful branching points by visual analysis of the color-coded Chromo2-2000 file, I added my own, more DF27-specific comments on the following Anthrogenica thread. See especially posts #9 and #15, for a number of 2013 refinements of the basic DF27 phylogeny: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...e-Chromo2-test

    25 March 2013: NextGen sequencing of the Y chromosome (later to be called "FGC Elite") was announced by Full Genomes Corporation, initially at a cost of $1250.

    9 Nov. 2013: The "Big Y" test was unveiled at the FTDNA annual conference for administrators, initially at a cost of $695.

    As a consequence of the newly available NextGen sequencing from FGC and FTDNA, the "SNP tsunami" (as it was called by several bloggers) hit our haplogroup projects with full force in the spring of 2014, and has not really abated.
    Last edited by razyn; 08-08-2017 at 09:34 PM.

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    Sorry my friend, I missed this somehow. You know my thoughts on all of this. I tested for Z209 with the advice of Henry Zenker after he told me I had the typical North/South STR signature. You also know that I have been an avid, if not passionate advocate our group being just as Bell Beaker/ Italo-Celtic as U152 and L21. I have never once denied the density of DF27 in Iberia, but have remained steadfast to the onviction that DF27 was of course born in roughly the same place as all of the rest of the P312 clades. It is a matter of common sense prevails. And it turned out that the earliest DF27 to date was found in Germany. I firmly believe when this all shakes out that DF27 will be the largest P312 clade found in modern populations on the continent of Europe. So your initial assessment of Z196 has something to tell us has turned into DF27 and his two sons: ZZ12 and Z196 had a great deal to tell us!

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    Fascinating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    Nearly three weeks have elapsed during which nobody has commented, or even left "thanks," on this thread. It's had 58 views. It seems not to have been very effective, in this form, so I'll try a different approach. Over the past couple of days I've gone through the main Eupedia thread cited here (the one I started) and extracted a sort of timeline to illustrate what we knew about Z196, and when we knew it. As time went by, the topic of our discussions shifted in large part to the parent level, DF27; and references to its Z196 level shifted in large part to the phylogenetically equivalent SNP Z195.

    In the following series of dated comments, cut from the same Eupedia thread, those that are not marked as quotations are my own. Others are attributed to the forum name used when they were posted. These attributions, and any additional commentary I have written in Aug. 2017, appear within brackets. The final archived post from that Eupedia thread is dated 20 July, 2012. A number of significant events more recent than that date have been added at the end, to bring the timeline closer to the present. This more recent period has been covered as it unfolded, on other Anthrogenica threads. It just seemed logical to summarize, a bit.
    ___________________________________

    23 Sept. 2011: Discovered via the 1000 Genomes project about five months ago [April 2011], Z196 is one of the oldest and largest clades of R-P312.

    (same): After SNP testing for Z196 became available at FTDNA in mid-May [2011], a project was set up on DNA-Forums (by Vince Tilroe) to track the results.

    (same): One of the most interesting visual depictions of the complexity of Z196 is Rich Rocca's diagram showing the new SNPs of P312, most of which aren't yet on the ISOGG tree nor on Thomas Krahn's Draft tree. [As of the date of my writing that, 23 Sept. 2011. I believe that the phylogeny of Z196 and its subclades had been revised only slightly when published online in the paper usually cited as "Rocca et al, 2012," discussed below because it was a few days after this Eupedia thread ended.]

    (same): Anyway, you won't see anything about it [Z196] (yet) in the usual sources such as Jean Manco's "Peopling of Europe" site; Maciamo's map section here [Eupedia forums]; the often-cited and much debated studies of Myres, Balaresque, Klyosov, Busby et al; or the books so far published by Bryan Sykes, Barry Cunliffe, and David W. Anthony. It's brand new stuff. One of these days, it will be important stuff; and when you finally read about Z196 in a journal, or see a map of its distribution or variance for the first time, you can say, "I knew that."

    25 Sept. 2011: At some point, I hope to see much more European participation in testing for Z196. And, of course, testing for the new Z series SNPs under Z196 -- for which there are not yet any tests offered.

    (same): The leading serious attempts at dating R1b clades were mentioned just this morning in a DNA-Forums post by Mikewww, and [Marko] Heinila's timetable [the only one that included Z196] is linked. This is part of what Mike said: "One thing that I find interesting is that whether it is Anatole Klyosov, Vince Vizachero, Ken Nordtvedt, Marko Heinila, or Tim Janzen - R-L21 and its brothers like U152 and P312* as well as P312 itself all come out with TMRCA estimates in the [range of] 3500 to 5000 years before present. Perhaps it's just coincidental, but this overlays the Bell Beaker era."

    30 Sept. 2011: News flash: Z196 is now mentioned on Jean Manco's page about the Iron Age:
    [The posted url has been removed, as it no longer works.]
    Note that this response took only a week; one may hope that the academic literature may follow, perhaps within a year or two.
    [Note also that up through this time, DF27 had not been mentioned in any post; it was only discovered during the following month.]

    4 Oct. 2011: rms2 [then administrator of the FTDNA project for R1b-P312] posts, "You might be interested to know that a Russian guy got a Z196+ result this evening: Zavorokhin (Ysearch YZDWK), whose most distant known ancestor was a Cossack from near Talmenka in Siberia.
    I think that is probably the eastern record for Z196 thus far."

    20 Oct. 2011: Just by way of keeping this thread up to date, a recent conference paper by Dr. Steve Harding has more or less incidentally revealed the presence of M153 in Norway, and SRY2627 (M167) in Denmark and Sweden. Since these SNPs are under Z196, on either of its main branches (M153 on the branch with the North-South cluster, and SRY2627 on the L176.2 branch) -- and both have previousky been linked with Iberia, and/or the Basques -- finding them Scandinavia is somewhat unexpected.

    4 Jan. 2012: [Three paragraphs about the North-South Cluster, basically the Z196 subclades now tested by the Z209 SNP Pack at FTDNA. The final paragraph on that begins as follows.] It is distinctly possible that the N/S Cluster, as a whole, represents a larger, older, more northern or more eastern population than the lineage of its L176.2 brother. Probably, not all of those things -- but any of them would be possible.

    (same): Here is one other recent Z196 development -- which hasn't been discussed any further since it was announced on DNA-Forums (11 Nov. 2011, by Rich Rocca): "Also, last month [Oct. 2011], the anonymous researcher found DF27. While this SNP will probably not make its way to the phylogenetic tree any time soon because of its volatility (it has some back mutations in some samples and is heterozygous in others), it is interesting because it seems to be the parent SNP of both Z196 and Z225/Z229. If nothing else, it reinforces the importance of Z196 in Iberia." [The passage in quotation marks is from Rocca's Nov. 2011 post, not my Jan. 2012 one. "The anonymous researcher" was not identified at the time, and I'm not sure that he or she has ever been named. It was one of the team of "citizen scientists" studying R1b data from the 1000 Genomes project, subsequently described in "Rocca et al, 2012."]

    5 Jan. 2012: Mikewww posts, "Here are the most eastern MDKA's that I can find."
    f40804____ zzzUnkName_______________ R-Z196/L176/SRY______________ zs-unassigned_______ ___ Czech Republic
    f97920____ Zencker__________________ R-Z196*______________________ z1418-NS____________ EP96D___ Czech Republic, Bohemia, Waltersdorf
    f163820___ Both_____________________ R-Z196*______________________ z1418-NS____________ NXP7D___ Hungary
    f155312___ Palkó ___________________ R-Z196*______________________ z1418-NS____________ JUH7U___ Hungary
    f189361___ Kedves___________________ R-Z196/L176**________________ z176-unassigned_____ DT2NU___ Hungary, Heves, Szentdomokos
    f116134___ Schoenberg_______________ R-Z196/L176/SRY______________ zs49010_____________ QZQJ6___ Hungary, Szecseny (Jewish project)
    f138253___ Bielawski________________ R-Z196/L176/SRY______________ zs45818_____________ 6DE2X___ Poland
    f133936___ Wyrwas___________________ R-Z196*______________________ z1418-NS-B__________ ENMN2___ Poland, Greater Poland Voivodeship, , Krotoszyn Co. Kobierno, Dabrowa
    f142712___ Nydecke__________________ R-Z196*______________________ z48714-B____________ 7V3XA___ Poland, Lesser Poland Voivodeship, Wieliczka
    f44479____ Richert__________________ R-Z196_______________________ z1418_______________ YZJSN___ Poland, Lublin Voivodeship, Stężyca
    f60159____ Richert__________________ R-Z196_______________________ z1418_______________ FKYRD___ Poland, Pomeranian Voivodeship, Gdańsk, Oliwa
    fN51984___ Zavorokhin_______________ R-Z196*______________________ z-unassigned________ YZDWK___ Russia
    yX3C37____ Corbett__________________ R-Z196/L176/SRY______________ zs-unassigned_______ X3C37___ Ukraine
    fN40082___ zzzUnkName_______________ R-Z196/L176**________________ z176-unassigned_____ ___ Ukraine
    f10487____ Slugodzki________________ R-Z196/L176*_________________ z176-unassigned_____ SVAG5___ Ukraine, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast, Ottynia
    f1401_____ Chernik__________________ R-Z196**_____________________ z1418-NS____________ YHP6P___ Ukraine, Khmelnytskyi Oblast, Krasilov

    9 Jan. 2012: Moesan posts, "I can no more go on the DNA Forum (I don't know why, everytime I try to get in it answers me: 'error' ...?)" [I believe this may mark the fact that DNA-Forums had just ceased to exist in an accessible form; and the numerous urls I had been posting on this Eupedia thread, cross-referencing English and French discussions at DNA-Forums, were no longer working links.]

    3 March 2012: Anyone in the North/South Cluster of P312... may be interested in the fact that FTDNA has just made available a SNP test for Z209.

    (same): Added 6 March: the FTDNA Advanced Orders menu now shows five of the new Z-series SNPs in this sequence (Z196+ but L176.2-) available for testing: Z209, Z220, Z216, Z278 (aka rs1469371), Z214.

    17 April 2012: Dubhthach posts, "As Razyn has pointed out there is a new SNP above Z196 that is known as DF27. Richard Rocca did an analysis of 1000 genomes data from Iberia and posted it on World Families.----SNP FrequencyDF27+ 44.4% (12 of 27) ... DF27* 14.8% (4 of 27) ... Z196+ 25.9% (7 of 27) ... Z225+ 3.7% (1 of 27)L21+ 7.4% (2 of 27)U152+ 7.4% (2 of 27)L23* 3.7% (1 of 27)P312* 3.7% (1 of 27)U106+ 3.7% (1 of 27)Total R1b 70.4% (19 of 27)----- Big chunk of that DF27+ was Z196-"

    11 June 2012: All of the Z196 phylogeny -- which this thread originally addressed -- falls under the newly testable SNP DF27. That one seems to rival U152 and L21 in age and importance.

    20 July 2012: The ISOGG tree for Haplogroup R was radically updated in late June, so the new, much more complex and detailed phylogeny of DF27 and its subclades may now be seen there.
    ___________________

    Additional commentary, not from Eupedia Posts:

    24 July 2012: Publication of "Rocca et al, 2012" on the PlosOne website carries the first announcement of DF27 to the broader scientific community, as distinguished from the readership of a few blogs and online forums. See Figure 1 for DF27 and several other clades that had previously been lumped together as P312*, or sometimes P312 (xL21, xU152): http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0041634

    25 July 2012: The Geno2.0 chip test was announced by the Genographic Project, and was to be shipped to the first customers by the end of October. It tested for a reasonable range (of the SNPs then known) from the Z196 side of the DF27 phylogeny. One important shift was the use of Z195, then considered (and still considered) to be equivalent with Z196. It was easier to test reliably on a chip than Z196, although that had already been tested by many FTDNA customers (via Sanger sequencing). References on blogs and forums, on the FTDNA Haplotree displays, and eventually in the scientific literature as that began to emerge, have gradually shifted in the favor of Z195. Phylogenetically, the terms are interchangeable; but they are separate mutations, at different loci on the Y chromosome.

    The first edition of Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys was released in May, 2013. Although the new, more inclusive SNP is not indexed, there is a reference to DF27 (citing "Rocca 2012") on p. 165. I believe that is the earliest reference to DF27 in a hardback book authored by an academic. One more early reference to DF27 (but by a different name, assigned by a different team of scientists) may have appeared in a privately published research paper about the Anglesey Bone Setter.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-nor...wales-15628885

    The report on the Anglesey Bone Setter YDNA project was released to the public in Aug. 2012, revised 4 Sept. 2012. (Unfortunately, the 2012 url for viewing that study online no longer works.) About a dozen new SNPs were discovered in the DNA of a direct male-line descendant of the shipwrecked 18th century Bone Setter (whose adoptive name in Wales was Evan Thomas), numbered by the lab of Dr. James Wilson (then doing business as BritainsDNA) S400 and higher. These were determined to be downstream of S250, the name assigned by the Wilson lab to DF27. Beginning in 2013, the S400 series of SNPS were tested on that lab's Chromo2 chip. They are found in columns ALM and ALN of the "Chromo2-2000" spreadsheet (anonymized results from testing with that chip) that were made public by Dr. Wilson, and announced by Alex Williamson on 19 Feb. 2014, here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post31528

    Coincidentally, Feb. 2014 was the month in which I assumed effective control of FTDNA's R1b-DF27 and Subclades haplogroup project, of which Mikewww and I had jointly been administrators since it was formed in July 2013. Mike did the initial grouping, and related administrative work, until I got up to speed on how to do that. Having found a good many useful branching points by visual analysis of the color-coded Chromo2-2000 file, I added my own, more DF27-specific comments on the following Anthrogenica thread. See especially posts #9 and #15, for a number of 2013 refinements of the basic DF27 phylogeny: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...e-Chromo2-test

    25 March 2013: NextGen sequencing of the Y chromosome (later to be called "FGC Elite") was announced by Full Genomes Corporation, initially at a cost of $1250.

    9 Nov. 2013: The "Big Y" test was unveiled at the FTDNA annual conference for administrators, initially at a cost of $695.

    As a consequence of the newly available NextGen sequencing from FGC and FTDNA, the "SNP tsunami" (as it was called by several bloggers) hit our haplogroup projects with full force in the spring of 2014, and has not really abated.
    I missed it, too! I must confess that I'm looking at this site less frequently these days. Some aDNA results from the British Isles will probably be released later this year, then I'll regain my enthusiasm. Sadly, I'm impatient & can't bear all the waiting. Thank God for Guinness!

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  10. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by castle3 View Post
    I missed it, too! I must confess that I'm looking at this site less frequently these days. Some aDNA results from the British Isles will probably be released later this year, then I'll regain my enthusiasm. Sadly, I'm impatient & can't bear all the waiting. Thank God for Guinness!
    Actually, your position has come a long way as well since the P312* days, thanks in a large part to Alex. To think that Z40481 links now links ZZ11 (which links DF27 with U152), DF99, and ZZ37/ZZ38 (which links three groupings under that) including your grouping. I study Alex's tree at least weekly, so I am still pretty amazed that so many people like yourself and Goldenhind, who years ago were P312*, now have a decent tree structure. Your grouping is very interesting. You have what appears to be a distinctively Welsh cluster to your left under Z29644. Then your cluster under L624, which appears a half mix of Scottish and English, I presume. Then to your right the cluster under Z39300, which has a Finn, a German, an Irish guy, a Scot, and two undeclared. This third reminds me a bit of DF99's mix. All quite baffling, yet, again, they all stem from the same upper clades, so the birthplace of the three groups under P312 had to have been very close to the same place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Actually, your position has come a long way as well since the P312* days, thanks in a large part to Alex. To think that Z40481 links now links ZZ11 (which links DF27 with U152), DF99, and ZZ37/ZZ38 (which links three groupings under that) including your grouping. I study Alex's tree at least weekly, so I am still pretty amazed that so many people like yourself and Goldenhind, who years ago were P312*, now have a decent tree structure. Your grouping is very interesting. You have what appears to be a distinctively Welsh cluster to your left under Z29644. Then your cluster under L624, which appears a half mix of Scottish and English, I presume. Then to your right the cluster under Z39300, which has a Finn, a German, an Irish guy, a Scot, and two undeclared. This third reminds me a bit of DF99's mix. All quite baffling, yet, again, they all stem from the same upper clades, so the birthplace of the three groups under P312 had to have been very close to the same place.
    Yes, you're correct, it is an interesting assortment under ZZ38. Just for accuracy:the vast majority of those who FTDNA currently show under Z30600 have Scottish roots, despite the flags etc shown. By adding other companies' more British-based testees, we find over 40 surnames under L624, and the vast majority (90%+) are of Scottish stock. Admittedly, not all are mainstream for their surname. The Welsh group you mentioned are also of interest as I believe they also represent indigenous inhabitants. However, the once Irish-dominated group under ZZ38 needs some serious analysis!
    Last edited by castle3; 08-09-2017 at 07:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    ... Over the past couple of days I've gone through the main Eupedia thread cited here (the one I started) and extracted a sort of timeline ...
    In the following series of dated comments
    ....
    25 Sept. 2011:
    ...
    (same): The leading serious attempts at dating R1b clades were mentioned just this morning in a DNA-Forums post by Mikewww, and [Marko] Heinila's timetable [the only one that included Z196] is linked. This is part of what Mike said: "One thing that find interesting is that whether it is Anatole Klyosov, Vince Vizachero, Ken Nordtvedt, Marko Heinila, or Tim Janzen - R-L21 and its brothers like U152 and P312* as well as P312 itself all come out with TMRCA estimates in the [range of] 3500 to 5000 years before present. Perhaps it's just coincidental, but this overlays the Bell Beaker era."
    ....
    Y SNPs are great and Next Generation Sequencing is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

    Now for the despair. In reality, we must take all TMRCA estimates by the SNP counting methods as well as the STR methods with a grain of salt. They are just not that precise. I'm as guilty as anybody but we often get too excited by the "best guess" single number age estimates and lose track of the true error ranges.

    SNP age counting really hasn't contributed that much to ancient TMRCA estimates, at least in the near term (Neolithic and on in). I expect some blow back on that.

    No one listens to me on this or maybe (like me) no one has the capabilities to follow through on this. Other than ancient DNA finds, we won't have significant improvements in TMRCA age estimates until we start using advanced computer based software to solve this problem. I'm speaking about analytics software and models like linear programming and computer simulations. This is too complex and too variable to do this by a single method with a single type of data, be it STRs or SNPs or whatever. Advanced modeling techniques let the computer crunch through all of the data and tell you what correlates and to what degree. You end up with a "best fit".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    yet, again, they all stem from the same upper clades, so the birthplace of the three groups under P312 had to have been very close to the same place.
    In addition this also the case from the autosomal dna perspective, as shown recently in 2 maps for df27 and u152 of ancient autosomal dna. Wherever df27 and u152 originated, they must have originated from the same place. But It is clear that the place of origin and the center of expansion is quite a different thing, and different for these clades. I still wonder why df27 expended so strongly in Iberia, where there no men to compete with, there ?
    Comparatively the df27 'center of expansion' in Benelux seems barely like a center of expansion. But that's a consequence of Iberia success. Any heat map based on global % df27 will be crushed under the weight of Iberia which will occult everything else and will draw people to the same wrong conclusion again.
    That is why I would prefer to see a map build on the number of df27 subclades under a given age, or alternatively a map of subclades color coded for their age. I though it would be a fine map, until I realized that, in Yfull, all the df27 subclades are dated at the same age of 4400bp, sometimes as far as 5 branchings under df27. Of course then a map of df27 subclades that are color coded for their age, would show only one color...at 4400bp. Big fail. But McDonald's dates seems to release a little bit of constrain on this, so maybe there is hope for a 'smarter' map.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ric View Post
    I though it would be a fine map, until I realized that, in Yfull, all the df27 subclades are dated at the same age of 4400bp, sometimes as far as 5 branchings under df27.
    There are so many cool maps and graphs that we could do which are all crushed by the complexity and uncertainties. I tried making a graph for P312 and U106 with counts from Yfull's formed dates which show a huge burst of activity for P312 at 4400. But the sampling is skewed and like Mikewww says, the errors bars are large and not present where I pulled the data, so you do all this work for something that maybe it's worthless but at least it's interesting to look at.

    ybp P312 U106
    2000 10 2
    2100 8 10
    2200 7 6
    2300 1 5
    2400 6 18
    2500 6 5
    2600 10 9
    2700 3 17
    2800 6 2
    2900 9 6
    3000 9 19
    3100 10 5
    3200 16 15
    3300 22 7
    3400 23 5
    3500 11 2
    3600 31 12
    3700 34 11
    3800 25 3
    3900 32 6
    4000 29 11
    4100 17 10
    4200 29 8
    4300 84 0
    4400 156 1
    4500 0 8
    4600 0 0
    4700 0 12
    4800 1 9

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