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Thread: Somalis and E-Y17859

  1. #1
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    Somalis and E-Y17859

    A while back, probably about a year ago now, I noticed Yfull added a subclade found among Somalis into their tree. This was a subclade of E-V32 dubbed E-Y17859, itself a subclade of E-Z813. I quickly noticed that E-17859 was also shared with an Egyptian sample and more recently than I was expecting (~3,500 TMRCA with a formation date of ~4,500). I thought this was interesting but, at the time, possibly just one random sample and it was best to just wait for future results and inquiries but just recently I was alerted to the fact that the E-V32 Somalis at FTDNA all belong to E-Y17859, with 5 out of 8 being pegged as belonging to E-Y17859's E-Y18355 subclade like the sample at Yfull. It might very well be that this is a very common E-V32 subclade in Greater-Somalia; in fact, it may very well be that almost all of us belong to this specific subclade.

    So, this is quite interesting... Especially given the rather recent TMRCA with an Egyptian sample which could be owed to Bejas. Just thought I'd share this for some who may not be aware and feel free to discuss what this could mean overall.

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  3. #2
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    I don't find this all that surprising, as most Somalis are bound to be descended from Cushitic/Erythræic-speaking nomadic pastoralists, and that implies a lot of founder effects. In fact the high E-V32 frequency in Greater Somalia, well over 70% IIRC, suggests just that.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  5. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I don't find this all that surprising, as most Somalis are bound to be descended from Cushitic/Erythræic-speaking nomadic pastoralists, and that implies a lot of founder effects. In fact the high E-V32 frequency in Greater Somalia, well over 70% IIRC, suggests just that.
    I've ordered my own kit. I want to see if I'll end up under this subclade too (I probably will) which will be cool because I'm paternally from around northeastern Sanaag and Bari while one of the samples at FTDNA, going by his name, is from the Haud area. If we both share this subclade, that's a decent-ish geographic spread to go by as proof of it being common all around. I won't out them but I think I know at least one other E-V32 hombre on that list and he's from the around Woqooyi so that'll definitely give us some idea regarding the subclade's spread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon
    In fact the high E-V32 frequency in Greater Somalia, well over 70% IIRC, suggests just that.
    I'd personally put it at like 60-70% overall but in some areas E-V32 goes over 80% for sure. One other interesting thing to point out, while we're at this, is that some Luhya samples carry E-Z809, a distinct subclade of E-Z813 from E-Y17859 with a TMRCA between the two pegged at ~4,500ybp. I imagine E-Z809 was probably spread to areas south of the horn by South-Erythraeic speaking pastoralists so that's pretty interesting.

    If Somalis really are mostly E-Y17859 then it's possible we founder-effected like crazy for one particular E-V32 subclade found among several our earlier Proto-Agaw-East-South Erythraeic speaking ancestors, or at least our East-South Erythraeic speaking ancestors, carried if E-Z809 in Luhyas is anything to go on. Founder-effects indeed make sense with our ancestors' historical lifestyle and patrilineal way of doing things.

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  7. #4
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    The presence of E-V32 in Nilo-Saharan speaking peoples in what is now Darfur (namely the Fur and Masalit) suggests that there might have been an extinct West Erythræic branch spoken in the eastern part of the Sahara prior to the arrival of Nilo-Saharan speakers in the region. We might want to focus on the branches of E-V32 these guys carry as well, it could validate (or invalidate) this scenario.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  9. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    The presence of E-V32 in Nilo-Saharan speaking peoples in what is now Darfur (namely the Fur and Masalit) suggests that there might have been an extinct West Erythræic branch spoken in the eastern part of the Sahara prior to the arrival of Nilo-Saharan speakers in the region. We might want to focus on the branches of E-V32 these guys carry as well, it could validate (or invalidate) this scenario.
    Damn good point. I figured it was possible their E-V32 was owed to Nilo-Saharan speakers rather than South-Erythraeic speakers indeed. South-Erythraeaic speakers seem more like E-M293 was overwhelmingly their thing when dealing with E-M35 subclades. But it's possible some carried E-V32 like how they clearly carried T-M70.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon
    suggests that there might have been an extinct West Erythræic branch spoken in the eastern part of the Sahara prior to the arrival of Nilo-Saharan speakers in the region
    Have you ever seen linguistic evidence for this? Something non-North Erythraeic but clearly Erythraeic in certain Nilo-Saharan languages in that general area?

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  11. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    Damn good point. I figured it was possible their E-V32 was owed to Nilo-Saharan speakers rather than South-Erythraeic speakers indeed. South-Erythraeaic speakers seem more like E-M293 was overwhelmingly their thing when dealing with E-M35 subclades. But it's possible some carried E-V32 like how they clearly carried T-M70.
    Possible, but rather unlikely at this stage considering the strong correlation between the branches of AA and the branches of E-M35.

    Have you ever seen linguistic evidence for this? Something non-North Erythraeic but clearly Erythraeic in certain Nilo-Saharan languages in that general area?
    Unfortunately, no. While some like to point out similarities between AA and Nilo-Saharan (mostly dubious IMO), the latter is a notoriously understudied language family (and many linguists are not convinced that it is an actual language family in the first place). One immediately wonders about Meroitic, but the best work I've seen on this language so far suggests that it was an East Sudanic language. Do keep in mind though that we know of at least one "mixed language" with Bantu morphology and a largely Cushitic vocabulary, so it's quite likely Cushitic/Erythræic languages were previously spoken a far larger area by the past, thus increasing the odds in favour of the existence of extinct branches.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  13. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Do keep in mind though that we know of at least one "mixed language" with Bantu morphology and a largely Cushitic vocabulary, so it's quite likely Cushitic/Erythræic languages were previously spoken a far larger area by the past, thus increasing the odds in favour of the existence of extinct branches.
    What's odd about Mbugu is that some seem to suggest it's Erythraeic vocabulary is quite East-Erythraeic in nature. Always surprised me that East-Erythraeic speakers may have migrated down to Tanzania. What do you think of these arguments, though:

     
    "The solution that Mous proposes is that the Mbugu people originally spoke a form of (Old Kenyan) Cushitic but, probably some time after arriving in the Pare mountains (49), there was a rapid shift to a completely Bantu (Pare) grammar (83) The IMb lexicon has various sources, including Nilotic (Maasai), Southern Cushitic (Gorwaa and related languages), Eastern Cushitic (represented nowadays by Boraana Oromo and Dahalo, but possibly closer to Yaaku (Heine 1975)), and Bantu (notably Shambaa and phonologically adapted NMb).

    Mous argues convincingly that the Eastern Cushitic contributions are from an Old Kenyan Cushitic source and constitute the oldest lexical elements in IMb. This hypothesis is consistent with the most likely migratory route of the Mbugu and, if we assume that the Mbugu have always had a cattle culture, it is supported by the fact that much of the most detailed cattle terminology in IMb is from this source (43).

    Mous addresses the possibility that some of the Eastern Cushitic words in IMb could have come from Taita (Sagala, Davida) which although Bantu has undergone significant Cushitic influence (see Ehret & Nurse 1981). Of the IMb words shared with Taita that Mous lists on p.36 none that I am aware of have cognates in Mijikenda, despite the fact that there has been a significant Mijikenda influence on Taita (Sagala). This suggests either that “the Taita words in Inner Mbugu are remnants of an Old Kenyan Cushitic presence” (36) or that they are later borrowings from Taita which were either taken before the Mijikenda influx or were selectively borrowed in order to ‘screen out’ obviously Bantu words. The first scenario seems the more likely.
    "


    ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon
    Possible, but rather unlikely at this stage considering the strong correlation between the branches of AA and the branches of E-M35.
    I suppose so. It's also worth noting that the various Luhyas listed at Yfull also show E-M293 which is more obviously owed to South-Erythraeic speakers.

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  15. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    What's odd about Mbugu is that some seem to suggest it's Erythraeic vocabulary is quite East-Erythraeic in nature. Always surprised me that East-Erythraeic speakers may have migrated down to Tanzania. What do you think of these arguments, though:

     
    "The solution that Mous proposes is that the Mbugu people originally spoke a form of (Old Kenyan) Cushitic but, probably some time after arriving in the Pare mountains (49), there was a rapid shift to a completely Bantu (Pare) grammar (83) The IMb lexicon has various sources, including Nilotic (Maasai), Southern Cushitic (Gorwaa and related languages), Eastern Cushitic (represented nowadays by Boraana Oromo and Dahalo, but possibly closer to Yaaku (Heine 1975)), and Bantu (notably Shambaa and phonologically adapted NMb).

    Mous argues convincingly that the Eastern Cushitic contributions are from an Old Kenyan Cushitic source and constitute the oldest lexical elements in IMb. This hypothesis is consistent with the most likely migratory route of the Mbugu and, if we assume that the Mbugu have always had a cattle culture, it is supported by the fact that much of the most detailed cattle terminology in IMb is from this source (43).

    Mous addresses the possibility that some of the Eastern Cushitic words in IMb could have come from Taita (Sagala, Davida) which although Bantu has undergone significant Cushitic influence (see Ehret & Nurse 1981). Of the IMb words shared with Taita that Mous lists on p.36 none that I am aware of have cognates in Mijikenda, despite the fact that there has been a significant Mijikenda influence on Taita (Sagala). This suggests either that “the Taita words in Inner Mbugu are remnants of an Old Kenyan Cushitic presence” (36) or that they are later borrowings from Taita which were either taken before the Mijikenda influx or were selectively borrowed in order to ‘screen out’ obviously Bantu words. The first scenario seems the more likely.
    "


    ?
    These arguments are quite sound actually. Even though South Cushitic would make more sense at first glance, there does seem to be an East Erythræic link here.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  17. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    These arguments are quite sound actually. Even though South Cushitic would make more sense at first glance, there does seem to be an East Erythræic link here.
    Ah, very good to hear this from a linguist like yourself. But on another note, what do you think of the TMRCA with that Egyptian? I recall you noting a long time ago that Yfull lowers the TMRCAs compared to what they might really be (i.e. by 1kya or so)? I had another party claim the opposite recently but yeah, it's intriguing nevertheless. Would be super interesting if they're descended from a Beja. It's somewhat possible this is coincidentally someone descended from a paternal Somali ancestor, though. Some chap who went running to al-Azhar 100 years ago or something, lol... But I sincerely doubt that given the ~3.5kya split from E-Y18355 which 5 of those 8 FTDNA Somalis appear under.

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  19. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    Ah, very good to hear this from a linguist like yourself. But on another note, what do you think of the TMRCA with that Egyptian? I recall you noting a long time ago that Yfull lowers the TMRCAs compared to what they might really be (i.e. by 1kya or so)? I had another party claim the opposite recently but yeah, it's intriguing nevertheless. Would be super interesting if they're descended from a Beja. It's somewhat possible this is coincidentally someone descended from a paternal Somali ancestor, though. Some chap who went running to al-Azhar 100 years ago or something, lol... But I sincerely doubt that given the ~3.5kya split from E-Y18355 which 5 of those 8 FTDNA Somalis appear under.
    I think the issue with YFull underestimating the TMRCA estimates has largely been solved (still an issue when dealing with entire haplogroups though), there's no reason to doubt the estimate for Y17859 considering the time span we're dealing with here. One issue though is that some branches are probably included into Y17859, that's the case with my branch of J1 for example (check the +19 SNPs: ZS227 and Z18271 are still placed on the same level, while in fact they're different branches the former being the latter's "ancestor"). I strongly suspect this is what we're going to see here as well, and so intermediary branches are being missed in the process.

    That being said, he could be descended from a Beja, that's actually one of the best explanations so far.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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