Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 42

Thread: FTDNA Family and Friends Sale

  1. #21
    Registered Users
    Posts
    241
    Sex
    Location
    Moscow
    Ethnicity
    Russian/a bit Ashkenazi
    Nationality
    Russian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-Z92>YP569

    Russian Federation Ukraine Belarus Israel
    Quote Originally Posted by sgdavies@hotmail.com View Post
    Hi Oleg, Yes I already intend to do that, so would you in your opinion just now forget about the STR Markers, and just concentrate on the new snps and get the BAM and see where this leads?
    I would forget about STRs, but if I had extra money I would also order more STRs because many potential matches haven't done NGS tests. As of now, I have 58 matches at my 25 markers and only few of them have done Big Y (or any SNP tests). If you need as much genealogical info as possible, STR tests are still valid.
    myOrigins: 77% East Europe, 14% Finland, 2% Siberia, 2% Northeast Asia, 2% Central Asia, <2% North and Central America
    GEDmatch: T159830 (me), T276978 (maternal granny)

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Oleg (Rus) For This Useful Post:

     FionnSneachta (09-01-2017),  sgdavies@hotmail.com (09-01-2017)

  3. #22
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,648
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by sgdavies@hotmail.com View Post
    I am waiting the Big Y results patiently, but my question is this, if I will have my Big Y results, is there any benefit at all with upgrading from my current Y37 STR marker to Y67 or Y111?
    if there might be, then I might just do it, if not then wont bother, any help appreciated to make up my mind.
    There is some benefit to a marker upgrade--at least up to 67 markers. Right at this moment, the 37-to-67 upgrade is still only $79. It will probably rise to $99 within a few hours.

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to lgmayka For This Useful Post:

     Joe B (09-01-2017),  sgdavies@hotmail.com (09-01-2017)

  5. #23
    Registered Users
    Posts
    970
    Sex
    Location
    South Wales
    Ethnicity
    Mostly Welsh,+ flags
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA (M)
    J2a1a1a
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a- Z283 - Y128147

    Wales Scotland Ireland Cornwall United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    There is some benefit to a marker upgrade--at least up to 67 markers. Right at this moment, the 37-to-67 upgrade is still only $79. It will probably rise to $99 within a few hours.
    Thankyou Igmayka, ok Y67 upgrade ordered.
    Last edited by sgdavies@hotmail.com; 09-01-2017 at 01:38 PM.
    Gedmatch
    Kit Num: M129412, QA3736362
    23andme
    Hidden Content
    LivingDNA
    Hidden Content

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sgdavies@hotmail.com For This Useful Post:

     Amerijoe (09-01-2017),  Joe B (09-01-2017)

  7. #24
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,648
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Your problem is you need more people potentially related to you (or others in your project).
    ...
    Your groups needs to work harder on recruiting but that does not mean you ignore testing more deeply.
    Chuckle. Relatives do not appear out of thin air. Neither does money. Different projects have very different circumstances:

    - Duiring the Age of Imperialism, some ethnic groups attempted to take over the world, prolifically spreading their Y chromosomes in the process, particularly on continents that had been less densely settled. This rapid growth and expansion of Y-DNA has yielded a rich harvest of patrilineal relatives. Other ethnic groups did not enjoy such growth and expansion.

    - Ethnic groups that have spread their Y-DNA around the world, and often intermixed with other groups, generally exhibit a stronger interest in genealogy and ancestry. People who have stayed in their own country (often intermarrying within their own village!) show less such interest.

    - Historically, the upper and upper-middle social and economic classes have ensured their own survival and reproduction--again, resulting in an adequate number of patrilineal relatives today. Lower classes, like serfs, could do so only to the limited extent permitted by authorities and economics.

    - Certain countries and socio-economic classes adopted surnames many centuries ago. This encourages interest in patrilineal genealogy, and also makes it easier. Other groups stabilized their surnames only in the late 18th century. Patrilineage investigation is thus less attractive, and also more difficult.

    - Some countries enjoy comparatively large quantities of disposable income, suitable for genealogy/ancestry investigation (which is, economically speaking, merely a hobby). This has produced a plethora of DNA test orders. Other countries are still recovering from rather recent invasions, subjugations, devastations, and oppressive political-economic systems. Their populations must watch their spending much more carefully.

    - With respect to FTDNA in particular, people living in North America can generally expect fairly rapid and reliable parcel service in both directions. In contrast, people in other parts of the world must deal with the frustration of slow and unreliable overseas shipping. The word-of-mouth effect from lost and late shipment signficantly discourages new orders.

    - For FTDNA, language is itself a significant barrier. Although young people in many nations can at least read English (the only language that FTDNA fully supports), older people--the prime age group for genealogy/ancestry investigation--often cannot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    You are making the "Big Data" mistake of assuming we can easily determine what is useful and useless.
    YFull provides one simple method (infinite alleles, no accounting of mutation rates) to compare hundreds of Y-STRs. Such comparison does not correlate with Y-SNPs nearly as well as one might hope.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    You seem to argue out of both sides of your mouth. Above you complain about matches that are not genealogically relevant and then here you only care about ancient DNA which has not much at all to do with genetice genealogy.
    Please be aware that in the United States, "argue out of both sides of your mouth" is typically a serious accusation of deliberate deception. Here, you are referring to my simple and logical point that when genetic genealogy does not produce concrete results after many years, the only reason to continue DNA testing at all is an interest in ancient and medieval ancestry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Both sides of the mouth again. Earlier you are argue for the legacy of Next Generation Sequencing but it is much more expensive upfront. Most budgets can't afford this so STRs and the large legacy database are a fact of life.
    That is clearly illogical. If a project member cannot afford the $395 Big Y today, the reasonable advice is to save his money carefully until he can afford it--not to buy something else that will almost certainly not meet his need, and worse, will delay his ability to afford what he really does need.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    The point is that Y-STRs generally tell us almost nothing about I2a-Dinaric.
    Who cares?
    Unfortunately, that indeed seems to be your attitude toward people throughout the world who do not have the abundance of relatives and money that your group apparently enjoys.

    As a final note, I must re-iterate my original point: I was not disagreeing with your advice to your own primary constituents--members of the populous R1b clades that are prolifically spread throughout the world. I was merely mentioning that your advice is not equally applicable to everyone--not even everyone in R1b.
    Last edited by lgmayka; 09-01-2017 at 03:08 PM.

  8. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to lgmayka For This Useful Post:

     Amerijoe (09-01-2017),  Artmar (09-02-2017),  FionnSneachta (09-01-2017),  JMcB (09-01-2017),  Joe B (09-01-2017)

  9. #25
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    896
    Sex
    Location
    California
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z2103>Y14416

    For the R1b basal subclades, NGS testing is much more important than STR testing. I've had numerous cases where people have been burned out because of spending money on the 111 STR test with no matches. By taking the Big Y test and submitting to YFull, they will have a match. It may be at 9000 year old match, but at least it's something. Pushing the 111 STR test rather than saving for Big Y test may work for the R1b-P312 and R1b-U106 crowd, it's usually of no benefit to the xU106 & xP312 folks. The exception is if you surname projects. For myself, the 111 STR upgrade advice was a waste of money.
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

  10. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Joe B For This Useful Post:

     Artmar (09-02-2017),  FionnSneachta (09-01-2017),  JMcB (09-01-2017),  lgmayka (09-01-2017),  MacUalraig (09-01-2017),  Oleg (Rus) (09-01-2017),  sgdavies@hotmail.com (09-01-2017),  spruithean (09-01-2017)

  11. #26
    Registered Users
    Posts
    970
    Sex
    Location
    South Wales
    Ethnicity
    Mostly Welsh,+ flags
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA (M)
    J2a1a1a
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a- Z283 - Y128147

    Wales Scotland Ireland Cornwall United Kingdom
    At 37 markers, I have many families called Eustice all related to each other and all from Ireland, so I’m curious to see what happens at 67 Markers.
    It’s odd as my Paternal surname is Davies, as far as I know at least, this part of my tree is most ambiguous.
    Gedmatch
    Kit Num: M129412, QA3736362
    23andme
    Hidden Content
    LivingDNA
    Hidden Content

  12. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to sgdavies@hotmail.com For This Useful Post:

     Amerijoe (09-01-2017),  FionnSneachta (09-01-2017),  JMcB (09-01-2017),  lgmayka (09-01-2017)

  13. #27
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,878
    Sex
    mtDNA (M)
    H
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    For the R1b basal subclades, NGS testing is much more important than STR testing. I've had numerous cases where people have been burned out because of spending money on the 111 STR test with no matches.
    I'm saying both Big Y and Y111. It's happening. Many people are doing both. I've had the conversation with people burned out on looking for matches a thousands (literally I think by now). Usually, they come around.

    However, just to show you I push NGS please look at the R1b project background page where I say:
    "7A. Big Y is the preferred test. It is probably the most important test you can take."
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background

    On the FAQ page I dedicate one whole question to it and wrote an analogy to describe Big Y. This is in bold letters and are to miss.
    "Big Y is probably the most important Y DNA test that you can take because it goes beyond testing for public and known SNPs. Big Y discovers your own line of SNPs rather than just the known SNPs. "
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/faq#/FBIGY

    I'm emphatic that both SNPs and STRs are needed and we don't have enough. I'm more emphatic that we don't have enough individuals testing but that's another topic. Just on August 28th on the R1b-YDNA yahoo group when pressed on which to do first Big Y vs Y111, here is my answer.
    My first recommendation is to get Big Y SNP discovery testing if you can.

    I keep better track of this in my own haplogroup/subclade project which is more static. We have just over 6,000 R-L21 project members. 1 of every 3 people in the R-L21 project have Big Y. There are 1,000 or more than are R1b-L21 outside the main R-L21 hapologroup project so the Big Y database for L21 must be 3,000 or more.

    For R1b in general we must have close to 10,000 Big Ys completed. The estimates are that Big Y is used over its nearest competitor by a ratio of about 15 to 1 so you do want to be in the Big Y results database regardless of other testing you might do. It does you little good to test regions or markers that others are not testing for.

    If you can't afford the upfront expense of Big Y it is best to build up as many STRs as you can for better targeted SNP testing and matching. We have tens of thousands of people now with 111. To review, in the R-L21 project we have about 1 in 2 people with 111 STRs so its database is even larger than Big Y's.

    On the other hand, if you ARE a Big Y tester then you should get to 111 STRs also. This gives you better matching and helps others to know to test for your SNPs, which helps yourself too. You want plant to your flag high for your Big Y discovered SNPs. Having more STRs also helps differentiate family lineages out in the leaves of the tree beyond the twigs (SNPs). An STR mutates about 1 of every 3 generations in the 111 marker set. That's on top of about an SNP every 1 of 4 generations from Big Y, giving you about 1 of every 2 generations mutation coverage overall.
    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...ns/topics/6979

    Notice the last paragraph. If you do Big Y, naturally you'd want people who are good matchs to test your youthful SNPs and that is legitimate for them to spend money doing so. They should do Big Y also but most people won't spend the $400 at one time but will spend a $100 a year for a couple of years.

    It still comes down to optimism which can encourage hard work (contacting, recruiting, cajoling, education) and patience. Good things happen. They really do. I'll give you an example of a conversation I've had many times. Fortunately, I guess, I don't take back seat to many. I thought I had really wierd haplotype for a long time but work and patience pays off.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 09-01-2017 at 06:40 PM.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Mikewww For This Useful Post:

     sgdavies@hotmail.com (09-01-2017)

  15. #28
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,878
    Sex
    mtDNA (M)
    H
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    ... Pushing the 111 STR test rather than saving for Big Y test may work for the R1b-P312 and R1b-U106 crowd, it's usually of no benefit to the xU106 & xP312 folks. The exception is if you surname projects. For myself, the 111 STR upgrade advice was a waste of money.
    Optimism is looking at the glass that is half full and seeing that it really can be full some day. No on says it doesn't take elbow grease and luck is always good.

    We have some tremendously well defined trees in subclades like L226. Those guys worked on that very diligently and with great focus. It was not magic. Now, I agree that they have a fairly good population of testers given the nature of Irish descendants but this is the future for most who are willing to go for it. The penetration of DNA testing for genealogy is very, very low. We are just early adopter stage, if we are out the pioneering stage which I don't know we are.

    There will be many, many more people testing, particularly as prices come down and testing becomes better targeted. We've seen more TV advertising that last two years on this than all of time prior.

    Below was a reply I had on the topic of Y STR match burn out on August 29th on the R1b-YDNA yahoo group.
    Doug, I don't have six (6) Y111 matches either. I am up to five (5) now but it was a long time coming and I had to do some recruiting and cajoling along the way. I checked my STR order history. I don't think my position was much different than what Iberians may be facing. I'm not in a particularly populous subclade, which was disheartening at first.

    I'm ecstatic whenever I see anybody show up on my 111 STR match list.

    2007-Apr: 12 STRs - many matches but made no sense

    2007-Dec: Upgraded to 37 STRs, no matches originally at 37, but had some at 25 that made no sense (Italy, Mexico, etc.). I had a peson from England which I figured had to be a lead but it was a waste of time.

    2008-Jan: Upgraded to 67 STRs, had two matches but nothing related to my surname or MDKA country (Ireland). Posters on a forum like this (I think Didier Vernade or Richard Stevenson get the discovery credit) noticed we had an STR signature pattern and that the two (2) 67 STR matches were from Wales, which did make some sense.

    2011-Apr: Upgraded to 111 STRs but didn't really find anything new

    2011-Oct: Determined I was L705+, additional testing showed it marked the STR signature (or vice versa)

    2012-Jul: My first two 111 STR matches showed up. On my best match the surname didn't make sense, but after I contacted him I found out about a surname change so it was real.

    2016-Jul: A new best match showed. I was able to get confirmation of the terminal SNP but was not able to get them to do Big Y yet.

    Here is the matching display at 111 and 67 as of early 2016. The recruiting based on the STR signature really pays off as you can see at 67 STRs.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/btbaqla70l...tches.pdf?dl=0

    Here is my 111 matches display [TODAY] with five (5) folks, which I'm excited to have although it took some work and patience. I think this is where some luck is needed too.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/4hsd8kcsqj...tches.pdf?dl=0

    DYS532 (in 68-111) proves to align as a STR signature marker for my surname and its variants. DYS389-1=14 and DYS447=26 (in 1-37) appear to mark just my surname spelling and potentially DYS391=12 marks my true family (MDKA immigrant). I need more people to test out to know. It's about time to go get a cousin but I'll have to pay.

    In the future potential distant cousins may be able to get by with much more targetted (less expensive) testing byt we still need more Big Y + Y111 gold haplotypes to probe(discover) and mark(flag) each MDKA's position.

    Mike W

    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...ns/topics/7003

    I had 111 STRs for almost a year before a match showed up and he was recruited/educated. He is GD=6 at 111, but look at my GD=2 match. He just happened out of the blue just a year ago, five years from my Y111 upgrade.

    Don't assume the database is stagnant. It just takes one good match to come along and all of the sudden the value is there. It happens. It happens all the time but it is good to give it a push.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 09-01-2017 at 08:05 PM.

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Mikewww For This Useful Post:

     Amerijoe (09-01-2017),  Joe B (09-01-2017)

  17. #29
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,878
    Sex
    mtDNA (M)
    H
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    For the R1b basal subclades, ...
    I've had numerous cases where people have been burned out because of spending money on the 111 STR test with no matches.
    We have a preoccupation with the matches seen on the display the last time we looked, not patient for the database to grow and not getting lower level sketchy matches to upgrade.

    I constantly fight the match and genetic distance myopic perspective on STRs. This is why I tried to explain their potential benefits better on the R1b FAQ web page.

    STRs are useful in several ways

    1) Team or cluster building and finding people who might be closely related to you.
    2) Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA) estimates.
    3) As a guide (only) for advanced and deeper SNP testing.
    4) Cross-checking and validation of newly discovered SNPs.
    5) As differentiators at the tips of the branches (the leaves) in tree building as fenced in by SNPs. However STRs should not be used to assume branch placement as a replacement for SNPs.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/faq

    More people need to understand STR signature patterns.

    Doing Y111 does not take away from Big Y, but I recommend doing Big Y for anyone who is considering it. In other words don't wait regardless of your STR status. Y111 can be achieved in multiple budget friendly upgrades.

    There is pretty good evidence of this in the R1b-L21 project. It's a huge project and we have 1 out of 3 people with Big Y and 1 of 2 with Y111.

    The R1b Basal project has about 1 out of 5 with Big Y and 1 of 4 with Y111.

    So L21 has greater penetration of Big Y despite also having greater penetration of Y111.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 09-01-2017 at 09:05 PM.

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to Mikewww For This Useful Post:

     Joe B (09-01-2017)

  19. #30
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    896
    Sex
    Location
    California
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z2103>Y14416

    This is a healthy discussion. From our haplogroup project standpoint, optimism is focused on building new branches to the phylogenetic SNP based haplotree. STRs are subservient to SNPs and of no use in building the haplotree. The R1b Basal Subclade project encourages STR testing to 67 STRs, just not at the expense of Big Y or SNP pack testing. The 111 STR test is best handled by surname or other projects. Even some of those have turned their focus away from STRs to SNP based phylogeny with specialized SNP packs at YSEQ.
    Doug has been at this for a long time and is a real pioneer. But that is the exception to the rule for the basal subclades. Even his subclade.
    111 STRs is not a proper recommendation to a 67 STR tested Saudi R1b-V88 who's is only close match is a distance of one at 12 STRs to a R1b-P25 from the Chad. Both of them should be NGS tested.
    There is a gentleman from Iran who likely belongs to the newly found R1b-Z2103>PF331, FGC35088 branch. On the R_R1b All Subclades activity feed, this gentleman proudly said he was awaiting his Big Y results. He actually ordered 111 STRs. It's very difficult to find Iranian R1b-Z2103 NGS tested haplotypes. I'm not sure what all went into this. I suspect it was over promotion of the 111 STR test and perhaps translation. Regardless, not taking the Big Y is a big loss to R1b-Z2103 phylogenetics. It may be a long time before that 111 STR test is useful. In the meantime, let's hope he takes a NGS test so we can do the basic science of building the haplotree.
    Really Mike, comparing the L21 project to the R1b Basal Subclades is a apples and oranges situation. How many R1b-L21 haplotypes do you have resided in the Middle East for example? If you exclude the several hundred stale kits that are not supposed to be in the R1b Basal subclades project, the number of Big Y tested kits would look much better. If you isolate to the western Europe oriented basal kits, the number of Big Y and 111 STR tests looks much better.
    Last edited by Joe B; 09-01-2017 at 09:22 PM.
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

  20. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Joe B For This Useful Post:

     FionnSneachta (09-09-2017),  lgmayka (09-01-2017),  sgdavies@hotmail.com (09-02-2017)

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. DNA Day Sale at FTDNA
    By Mikewww in forum FTDNA
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 04-23-2018, 11:15 AM
  2. FTDNA Holiday Sale 2014
    By Scarlet Ibis in forum FTDNA
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 12-29-2014, 04:01 PM
  3. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 06-02-2014, 05:47 PM
  4. FTDNA's DNA Day Sale
    By Scarlet Ibis in forum General
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-19-2013, 02:11 AM
  5. 72 hour sale at FTDNA
    By GTC in forum General
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-23-2012, 03:44 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •