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Thread: P312** (the real deal) (P312+ U152- L21- DF27- DF19- L238- DF99-)

  1. #101
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    This is a response to posts on the FTDNA R1b backbone test thread, which I am posting here because they are more relevant to P312**.

    Mww suggested the P312** group is getting quite small as a result of the new R1b backbone test. I suggest it is actually getting larger. There are now some 22 in the R1b-P312 project who are classified as P312**, and the number grows with every new round of the backbone test. Add to this some 9 who are classified as P312>L624 but are otherwise negative for the six subclades of P312. L624/S389 is not recognized on any tree, so they really remain as part of P312**. There are also another 13 who are one or two SNP tests (which don't look very promising) away from P312** status.

    Rayzn suggested the group is rife for Big Y or other NGS testing, and suggested crowd funding to support it. Actually we have some 15 Big Y results for those who are P312** (including the L624+ group) that have been analyzed by Alex W. Three of those remain singletons. The other 12 are positive for two of his problematic palindromic SNPs, which he calls ZZ37 and ZZ38. Within that group he has three further subdivisions, one of which is the L624 group.

    Certainly more Big Y tests for P312** would be helpful. I believe that what is really needed is at least two of this group to test with FullGenomes, which covers regions untested in the Big Y. Crowd funding would be great, if we could find someone to manage it.

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    Certainly more Big Y tests for P312** would be helpful. I believe that what is really needed is at least two of this group to test with FullGenomes, which covers regions untested in the Big Y. Crowd funding would be great, if we could find someone to manage it.
    I did say BigY "or other NGS," that being a kenning for FGC -- since that is who else sells those to the public.

    But I think I agree with Mike more than I agree with you -- that the size, or at least the parameters, of P312** is shrinking rather than expanding. I reorganized the DF27** guys on the basis of the kind of tests they have taken that still didn't find any shared SNPs below DF27. They are my group Ea. And I suggest that if you were to do the same, P312** would shrink -- notably, by excluding those guys who share one or more of Alex's allegedly problematic SNPs. Call them something other than SNPs or UEPs, if it floats your boat: chromosomal aberrations that distinguish them from others who lack them, and form separate branches -- in some cases thousands of years old, and perfectly stable. It doesn't really bother me if they are hard for Thomas or somebody else to test -- that just makes them expensive, not invalid or unstable.

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  5. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    I did say BigY "or other NGS," that being a kenning for FGC -- since that is who else sells those to the public.

    But I think I agree with Mike more than I agree with you -- that the size, or at least the parameters, of P312** is shrinking rather than expanding. I reorganized the DF27** guys on the basis of the kind of tests they have taken that still didn't find any shared SNPs below DF27. They are my group Ea. And I suggest that if you were to do the same, P312** would shrink -- notably, by excluding those guys who share one or more of Alex's allegedly problematic SNPs. Call them something other than SNPs or UEPs, if it floats your boat: chromosomal aberrations that distinguish them from others who lack them, and form separate branches -- in some cases thousands of years old, and perfectly stable. It doesn't really bother me if they are hard for Thomas or somebody else to test -- that just makes them expensive, not invalid or unstable.
    I was referring to numbers rather than parameters. By any measure, the R1b backbone test has increased the number of P312**. It has also increased their geographic spread. Not long ago, most of P312** was from Britain. Now we know that it is also present across the continent, from Finland to Italy to (probably) Poland.

    In referring to the palindromic SNPs as problematic, I am deferring to the opinions of those who know more about the science than I do. As I understand it, these SNPs are considered unstable because they are subject to back mutation on recombination events. Even Alex says their position is ambiguous. I am hopeful that eventually other equivalent SNPs will be discovered which will resolve the issue. In the meantime, I am adopting a wait and see attitude.

    The other problem with them is that the only way to test them is 1) to do the Big Y, AND 2) submit the Big Y data to Alex for analysis. Otherwise they are not identifiable.

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  7. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    I ...
    The other problem with them is that the only way to test them is 1) to do the Big Y, AND 2) submit the Big Y data to Alex for analysis. Otherwise they are not identifiable.
    I agree.

    ** folks are represented by ancient ghosts until they test with NGS as far as I am concerned.

    MJost
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    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1ís fatherís sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

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  9. #105
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    I want to make it very clear that I am in no way detracting from Alex's work in analyzing P312 results. Although I am uncertain what the ultimate fate of his palindronic ZZ series SNPs will be, his work has been very helpful to the resolution of P312 subclades, and I highly recommend that anyone in the P312 group who does the Big Y send him their raw data for analysis. This is especially important for those in the P312** category. I might add that he is quite selfless in this endeavor and charges no fee whatsoever for his service.

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  11. #106
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    A couple of years ago I mentioned that I had found an STR cluster within P312** which consisted largely of Welsh surnames (see post#2 on the first page of this thread). I have just discovered that two people with Welsh surnames who fit this STR profile have had their Big Y raw data files analyzed by Alex W., and both are positive for a number of SNPs, including one called S27900 (presumably a BritainsDNA marker). An easy way to spot this cluster is they all have an otherwise rare 14 at DYS392. I think the indications are very strong that S27900 is a new SNP under P312, though it may very well be more than one step down from P312. I suspect it will primarily be found in Britain, and especially Wales.

    S27900 does not appear on the ISOGG list for R1b, even as an SNP under investigation. Nor does FTDNA test for it outside of the Big Y. Presumably BritainsDNA does, but I don't kmow if it's included in their Chromo 2 test or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    S27900 does not appear on the ISOGG list for R1b, even as an SNP under investigation. Nor does FTDNA test for it outside of the Big Y. Presumably BritainsDNA does, but I don't kmow if it's included in their Chromo 2 test or not.
    I don't see "S27900" in the Chromo2 list. The last one listed is "S27802". Do you have coordinates?

  14. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceT View Post
    I don't see "S27900" in the Chromo2 list. The last one listed is "S27802". Do you have coordinates?
    S27900 is at 2681879, G to T

    Per Alex: http://www.ytree.net/SNPIndex.php

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  16. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    S27900 is at 2681879, G to T

    Per Alex: http://www.ytree.net/SNPIndex.php
    Ok, thanks. I just wanted to check if it came from the Genome of the Netherlands data. It's not there. It seems to be a new addition to BDNA since the Chromo2_v2 list was released. I'm glad to see they're making some progress.

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  18. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceT View Post
    Ok, thanks. I just wanted to check if it came from the Genome of the Netherlands data. It's not there. It seems to be a new addition to BDNA since the Chromo2_v2 list was released. I'm glad to see they're making some progress.
    When you say this SNP isn't included in the Genomes of the Netherlands data, do you mean it was included in the test but not found, or not tested?

    My guess is that it was found by BDNA in their recent sampling in Wales, and subsequently given an S designation. Running the STR signature in YSearch primarily results in a long list of Welsh surnames, with a very few of continental origin. These latter could be due to convergence or more recent migration. S27900, like the other new SNP below P312 L624/S389, appears to be primarily found in Britain.

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