Page 2 of 23 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 222

Thread: P312** (the real deal) (P312+ U152- L21- DF27- DF19- L238- DF99-)

  1. #11
    Registered Users
    Posts
    43
    Sex
    Location
    Valley of the Moon
    Nationality
    USA
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1c1

    United States of America Switzerland Italy
    Thanks, Rathna and GoldenHind for your input. I think because we are recent immigrants from Europe with ancestors who lived a very long time in in their little mountain communities, that we probably are a relict. Unfortunately our branch of R P312** will die out with this generation, as neither of my brothers have had sons, and our cousin, our father's nephew, had no sons either. The family in Italy, (grandpa's brother) had no sons either. I haven't been able to go back any further.
    As far as the Spanish question, ironically I have a large "Iberian" segment on one of my X chromosomes, which I assume is from my father. The other X is all "Northern Euro" but this is on the speculative mode. Still no definitive answer on that old family legend. But I doubt any recent Iberian as we have little to no Iberian or Spanish name matches on 23andMe or FTDNA FF.

    So, we'll wait and watch for more developments.

  2. #12
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,360
    Sex
    Location
    California
    Ethnicity
    British-Scandinavian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF99
    mtDNA (M)
    J2a1a

    England Denmark Wales Scotland Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    Five different people on the P312** list share a number of nine different off modal values. All have English or Welsh surnames. A further investigation showed a similar pattern to be present in a number of different surnames in the Wales-Cymru DNA project (see Ysearch DB3PX). At first I thought there were two different groups which shared a common origin, one English and one Welsh. Now however I have found someone with a Welsh surname who matches all nine off modals exactly. He has already tested negative for L21, U152 and DF19 (I think it is fairly safe to rule out L238 in this case). He now has a DF27 test pending, and I have no doubt he will be negative for that as well, which will add him to the P312** list.

    The nine off modals in question are:
    392 = 14 (this value seems to be universal in this variety)
    449 > 29
    464c = 16
    464d = 18
    456 < 16
    447 = 24
    442 = 11
    444 = 11
    390 = 23 (especially common in the Welsh surname group- most of the English surnames have the modal 24 there)

    392 = 14 by itself is rare in R1b, being found in less than 10% of examples. I do not suggest than anyone who has that value is likely to be part of this group. However I think anyone who has four or five of the above off modals is quite likely to be part of this variety, especially if they have a Welsh or English origin.
    The person with the Welsh surname I mentioned above has tested DF27- as I predicted, and should now be added to the P312** list.

  3. #13
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,729
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    With the advent of DF99, do we think there is such a thing as P312** any more?

    We know Goldenhind is DF99+ so if I remove his cluster, here is what I have left.

    f29073 Fimbres P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- L238- pa-56511-F Spain

    fN47555 Penna P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- p- uas Italy, Liguria, Savona, Murialdo

    f38806 Clayborne P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- p- uas England
    f131410 Ireland P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- p- uas England, North West, Lancashire, Halebank
    f92633 Crosby P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- L238- pa- uas England, South West, Bristol
    f30483 Hinds P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- L238- pa- uas England
    f104079 Keyes P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- L238- pa- uas England
    f51865 McFarlane P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- L238- pa- uas England, London, Middlesex, Islington
    f160082 Reader P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- L238- pa- uas England, Yorkshire and Humber, North Humberside, Whitgift
    f208664 Hewitt P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- L238- pa-53711-H UK

    f10042 Elder P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- p-1915-A Scotland, Tayside, Perthshire

    f28000 Meek P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- pa-39214 Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Ahoghill
    nd, East, Bedfordshire, Riseley
    f166446 Armstrong P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- pa-53711-A Ireland
    f10272 Fisher P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- p- uas Ireland

    f21572 Ellis P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- pa-59411-A Wales, Mid, Merionethshire in Gwynedd, Bala

    f22627 Rowley P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- pa-59411-A zzzUnkOrigin
    f39244 Overton P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- p- uas zzzUnkOrigin
    f119719 Williams P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- L238- L147.3- pa-39214 zzzUnkOrigin
    f213295 Gibson P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- pa-39214-A zzzUnkOrigin
    f34748 Jenkins P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- pa-39214-A zzzUnkOrigin
    f266463 Rice P312+ DF27- U152- L21- DF19- Z290- pa-39214-A zzzUnkOrigin
    f146435 Cochee P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- p- uas zzzUnkOrigin
    f87730 Woodruff P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- p-1012 zzzUnkOrigin

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to TigerMW For This Useful Post:

     R. Walker (09-28-2013)

  5. #14
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,360
    Sex
    Location
    California
    Ethnicity
    British-Scandinavian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF99
    mtDNA (M)
    J2a1a

    England Denmark Wales Scotland Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    With the advent of DF99, do we think there is such a thing as P312** any more?

    We know Goldenhind is DF99+ so if I remove his cluster, here is what I have left.
    That is the burning question. I am the only DF99 with available STR results, but I have so many off modals it is difficult to predict which, if any, of them will be indicative of DF99.

    Reader above does fall within a very small cluster that shares a number of slow mutating off modals with me. i will be very surprised if this group does not test DF99.

    Beyond that, I think your 10/12 [390=10, 389i=12] cluster has a better than 50/50 chance of being DF99.

    After that, one can only guess. DF99 may well be old enough that it has no off modal values different from those of P312, in which case anyone and even everyone on the P312** list could be DF99. I don't think we will make much progress on the question until FTDNA offers it. There are some vague promises reported elsewhere on this forum that the company plans to continue with testing new SNPs, but nothing concrete as yet.
    Last edited by GoldenHind; 09-27-2013 at 10:55 AM.

  6. #15
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,376
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152>L2>FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Italy Sicily Spain
    All of the the former P312** in the 1KG project have gone away except for two that have no-calls at DF27 - one from Iberia and the other from Puerto Rico. They are both likely to be DF27 however as they share some SNPs with other known DF27 samples.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  7. #16
    Registered Users
    Posts
    495
    Sex
    Location
    NE Ohio
    Ethnicity
    Bilge Rat
    Nationality
    U.S. American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-FT49882
    mtDNA (M)
    H3ap
    Y-DNA (M)
    R-Z255
    mtDNA (P)
    HV9a1

    United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    f160082 Reader P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- L238- pa- uas England, Yorkshire and Humber, North Humberside, Whitgift
    I probably should update my earliest known ancestor and earliest known Old World location. Lookin' at a Henry Reader (Henricus filius Henrici Reder) of Swillington-in-Elment which is 3.6 miles away from Whitkirk (current location listed at FTDNA, associated with Robert Reader I - christened 1643 St Mary's, father stated as Henry Reader). This area in general was a boundary region and changed hands frequently. Did a general STR gd comparison between myself and the P312** group:

    Velyaminov of Moscow, Russia 61 out of 76 (FTDNA + SMGF) - seems to be missing from the group now?
    Hatton of Nottinghamshire, England 48 out of 76 (FTDNA + SMGF) - confirmed DF99+.
    McFarlane of Islington, England 48 out of 47
    Keyes of unspecified region in England 48 out of 47
    Overton origin beyond Western European unk 48 out of 67
    Flaidd of Penllyn, Wales 47 out of 67
    Penna of Savona, Italy 47 out of 67
    Fisher origin beyond Western European unk 47 out of 67
    Ellis of Bala, Wales 46 out of 67
    Elder of Perth, Scotland 46 out of 67
    Williams origin beyond Western European unk 46 out of 67
    Williams origin beyond Western European unk 46 out of 67
    Fimbres of Sonora, Mexico 46 out of 67
    Fimbres of Liege, Belgium 45 out of 67
    Meek of County Antrim, Northern Ireland 44 out of 67
    Livingston of Isle of Mull, Scotland 44 out of 67
    Rice origin beyond Western European unk 44 out of 67
    Ireland of Lancashire, England 43 out of 67
    Crosby of Bristol, England 43 out of 67
    Rowley origin beyond Western European unk 43 out of 67
    Armstrong of Bedfordshire, England 43 out of 67
    Armstrong of unspecified region in Ireland 42 out of 67
    Gibson origin beyond Western European unk 42 out of 67
    Flowers origin beyond Western European unk 42 out of 67
    Cochee 41 out of 67
    Hewitt origin beyond Western European unk 41 out of 67
    Jenkins origin beyond Western European unk 40 out of 67
    Gordon of County Down, Northern Ireland 40 out of 67
    Hinds origin beyond Western European unk 37 out of 67
    Clayborne origin beyond Western European unk 37 out of 67
    Kirkpatrick of County Donegal, Ireland 37 out of 67
    Last edited by Telfermagne; 09-27-2013 at 01:33 AM.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Telfermagne For This Useful Post:

     R. Walker (09-28-2013)

  9. #17
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,729
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Telfermagne View Post
    ..This area in general was a boundary region and changed hands frequently. Did a general STR gd comparison between myself and the P312** group:

    Velyaminov of Moscow, Russia 61 out of 76 (FTDNA + SMGF) - seems to be missing from the group now?
    Hatton of Nottinghamshire, England 48 out of 76 (FTDNA + SMGF) - confirmed DF99+.
    ....
    Thanks, Telfermagne.

    I think Velyaminov matches the same STR cluster with Hatton so I think he is DF99+ as well. That's speculative but that is why he is not on the list.

    I suspect there might be other DF99+ clusters in the list but we won't know until they are tested.

  10. #18
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,729
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    All of the the former P312** in the 1KG project have gone away except for two that have no-calls at DF27 - one from Iberia and the other from Puerto Rico. They are both likely to be DF27 however as they share some SNPs with other known DF27 samples.
    Thank you.

    If you look at the list of STR matches (out of 67) that Tele just posted for us, you'll see that there is a lot of distance between folks. If the DF99 rate is really as high as the 1KG project results now indicate, then DF99 is quite old. You don't have to be big, to be old.

  11. #19
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,718
    Sex

    Kit 109663 of Poland (Ysearch 93HBC) is now

    M269+, P312+, DF27-, L21-, M153-, M65-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, Z196-

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to lgmayka For This Useful Post:

     GoldenHind (09-27-2013)

  13. #20
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,360
    Sex
    Location
    California
    Ethnicity
    British-Scandinavian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF99
    mtDNA (M)
    J2a1a

    England Denmark Wales Scotland Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    Kit 109663 of Poland (Ysearch 93HBC) is now

    M269+, P312+, DF27-, L21-, M153-, M65-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, Z196-
    A quick look at his STRs suggests he is unlikely to be L238, but I think he should try DF19 next.

Page 2 of 23 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. DF19 (P312>DF19) & Subclades L644, Z302, etc.
    By TigerMW in forum R1b-P312
    Replies: 131
    Last Post: 12-31-2022, 04:42 PM
  2. R1b P312 L238
    By Titus Valerius in forum R1b-P312
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 04-09-2020, 03:53 PM
  3. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 02-12-2016, 12:59 AM
  4. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-31-2014, 04:02 PM
  5. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 02-25-2014, 04:02 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •