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Thread: Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Unfortunately for this theory we know for sure that the onset of the Mycanaean civilization in Crete was accompanied with the arrival of steppe admixture. We also are very sure that the language changed as Linear B -confirmed to be Mycaean greek - is written in roughly the same characters as Linear A - not deciphered. Trying to wipe that hard fact away by assuming that "EHG samples already by the Neolithic in northern Greece" presents "an alternative to direct Steppe admixture" doesn't change that hard fact.
    Mycenaeans came from the mainland, which would explain the minor presence of EHG. However R1b/R1a/I as Steppe Y-DNA has still not been found. The origin of those colonists is ultimately mainland Greece, hence the argument of heavy Minoan legacy (as in the case of the Mycenaeans) can be excluded.
    Greek colonialist expansion was very much due to their patriarcal family/clan structure, hence these are original Greeks. I would like to see their J2a branches to exclude a recent heavy founder effect.

    The next case will be the upcoming Italy paper, if there is a again a lack of Steppe Y-DNA in potential Greek related samples things become more clear.
    I find a scenario in which IE Steppe people gave their language, auDNA and culture to form the Mycenaeans but for some reason don't manage to create a according patriarcal founder effect, not convincing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patarames View Post
    Mycenaeans came from the mainland, which would explain the minor presence of EHG. However R1b/R1a/I as Steppe Y-DNA has still not been found.
    But autosomal steppe admixture has. Which means a known and proven language switch to Greek is related to the arrival of a known and proven steppe admixture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patarames View Post
    The origin of those colonists is ultimately mainland Greece, hence the argument of heavy Minoan legacy (as in the case of the Mycenaeans) can be excluded.
    That is a non sequitur fallacy.

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    @johen

    I should have been more accurate here. Of course, yes those majority of R1b in the Greek colony could also be called Greek. However since they plot with IA Iberians, they are almost certainly locals. They are too different to the Mycenaean like samples and to similar to Iberian ones to make any sense.
    As we would expect an auDNA homogenization of Mycenaean-like and Steppe-like over the more than 1000 years of their merger. Even if the represent "elite Steppe Greeks" their plot with Iberians would be a too strange coincidence. Hence the only original ethnic Greek samples here are those 5 that plot with Agean-BA and they are exclusively J, almost certainly J2a.

    @epoch

    But autosomal steppe admixture has.
    To be more detailed, a certain mixture of EHG and CHG/Iran has been found. This may still be legit Steppe admixture, or a combination of EHG and CHG/Iran that just looks like Steppe admixture.
    With this paper we got the second oldest ethnic Greek samples and they again turn out to be J ( almost certainly J2a). After the single Mycenaean sample turning out J2a, we just got the next piece of evidence.

    That is a non sequitur fallacy.
    Rather history. Specific Greek city states did found these colonies. In this case the Greek people responsible for that colony were from deep inside mainland Greece.
    So the Minoan-influence argument like in the case of the Mycenaeans is hardly valid.
    Plus it tells us that also mainland Greece was probably heavily J2a, like Creta is still today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patarames View Post
    @johen

    I should have been more accurate here. Of course, yes those majority of R1b in the Greek colony could also be called Greek. However since they plot with IA Iberians, they are almost certainly locals. They are too different to the Mycenaean like samples and to similar to Iberian ones to make any sense.
    As we would expect an auDNA homogenization of Mycenaean-like and Steppe-like over the more than 1000 years of their merger. Even if the represent "elite Steppe Greeks" their plot with Iberians would be a too strange coincidence. Hence the only original ethnic Greek samples here are those 5 that plot with Agean-BA and they are exclusively J, almost certainly J2a.
    I don’t know where the 5 J come from. I think only 2 J belongs to Helenic Emupries2.

    We can think most R1b Greek people are regarded as locals in colony.
    Most of them are close to central BB culster. Problem is the BB skull type is close to the type of Greek bronze skull types, hence, I think the Greek royals have a similar admixture of BB.
    Moreover, mycenaean sample in the last research is not an ellite. However, it is true that they are too far from Agean-BA.

    As far as I know, Zeus is the most important concept regarding PIE. The concept cannot be seperated from Indra, chinese Di (“lord), and altai culture now. I think it is the the same situation of IE-speaking scythian’s main DNA, R1b, R1a-Z93 and Q1a.
    Achaeologically, the Greek royal/horse burials are surely foreign culture indicating that they came from north as Greek anthropologist said in his anthro research. So I think it is too early to lead to conclusion only by genetics w/o archaeology and anthro.

    Last edited by johen; 03-16-2019 at 04:36 AM.

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    The situation is unusual but quite clear. I tried to explain in my previous post why those R1b are almost certainly all locals.

    So now lets try to understand it:

    The first and most important anomaly is the preservative Agean_BA auDNA for the total of 3 male and 2 female samples.

    We can deduce a caste-like separation 150-200 after the colony was established. The female samples also prove that no open mixing with the aboriginals (exclusively R1b) encountered since the establishment of the colony occurred.
    This can have two reasons: The classical elite dominance situation in which the colonists that found the colony are a minority that wants to preserve ethnically. Or they are a slave-like population imported from Greece, Helots, Pelasgians with which no one wants to mix for some reason.

    The latter idea can almost certainly be excluded: Greek colonists were usually children of free Greek families/clans which could not make a living in the their fathers land, because their older brothers were already promised the land. Hence they grouped with other young people and went out to create new cities as they got sufficiently organized and structured. They hence had no luxury of slaves when they set out to create a colony, but once their colony was set up, they could acquire slaves from the aboriginal population there.
    In this case we can trace the origin of those colonists very far back to a quite desirable region of ancient Greece: Phocis , near ancient Delphi. Those young people went to the Ionian coast and created the colony Phocaea , after their success there and as pioneers of Greek seafaring they went on to create Empuries and other colonies.
    Therefore it becomes likely that the 5 colonist samples are direct descendants of the original Greek mainland tribe of the Phocians. This is due to the colonist concept and the very patriarchal structure of such ancient Greeks. They would not have slaves when traveling to the new colony as said and they all would be of core tribal origin, just not lucky enough to get a piece of the land of their fathers.
    Hence the Y-DNA haplogroups we see in the three samples are almost certainly proper ancient Greek ones: No slaves, no local Anatolians or even non-Greek Phoenicians (despite their high J2a presence).

    So there is a high degree of confidence that these are upper class, free or better said mainland tribal Greek J2a samples. Just as the Mycenaean J2a sample was a ordinary tribal Mycenaean , even if it was not a elite grave.

    I would like to see what those 3 samples in between Agean_BA and Iberia-IA are. If they are females, we can deduce that a elite dominance hierarchy was in place in the colony. If they are male R1b, then it was not a typical colony like situation, something not unheard of given how successful Iberian R1b was against H, G and I...

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    Ok, however it seems to me that the Greek bronze culture has a similarity of altai.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patarames View Post
    Greek colonists were usually children of free Greek families/clans which could not make a living in the their fathers land, because their older brothers were already promised the land. Hence they grouped with other young people and went out to create new cities as they got sufficiently organized and structured. They hence had no luxury of slaves when they set out to create a colony, but once their colony was set up, they could acquire slaves from the aboriginal population there.
    In this case we can trace the origin of those colonists very far back to a quite desirable region of ancient Greece
    A bit different, but I think this culture could be related with yamna culture and also might explain yamna expansion. Basically the yamna culture is not special, but "sun-head" and animal culture like in ancient altai. ( Thus I don't understand their migration to altai, which is just moving from LA to New york)

    When it comes to understanding the origin of European culture, there’s another reason for looking at the Yamnaya. The very foundation of Rome may be steeped in their traditions. According to studies of Indo European mythology, young Yamnaya men would go off in warlike groups, raping and pillaging for a few years, then return to their village and settle down into respectability as adults. Those cults were mythologically associated with wolves and dogs, like youths forming wild hunting packs, and the youths are said to have worn dog or wolf skins during their initiation. Anthony has found a site in Russia where the Yamnaya killed wolves and dogs in midwinter. He says it’s easy to imagine groups sacrificing and consuming the animals as a way to symbolically become wolves or dogs themselves. Bodies in Yamnaya graves on the western steppes frequently have pendants of dog canine teeth around their necks. Anthony says that all this offers solid archaeological evidence for the youthful “wolf packs” of Indo-European legends – and sees a link to the myth of the foundation of Rome. “You’ve got two boys, Romulus and Remus and a wolf that more or less gives birth to them,” he says. “And the earliest legends of the foundation of Rome are connected with a large group of homeless young men who were given shelter by Romulus. But they then wanted wives, so they invited in a neighbouring tribe and stole all their women. You can see that whole set of early legends as being connected possibly with the foundation of Rome by youthful war bands.
    How about marriage make-up symbol, of which tradition continues in Albania as I already posted. We can find it in karash people.



    Okunevo symbol at the bottom of pottery:


    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig9_275275447


    http://flathatnews.com/2012/09/03/a-...e-time-period/

    East scythian hairmode & beard (west scythian had bare head with one long braid):



    Greek beard (I think albanian keeps this culture)


    Very long braid culture continued in etruscan, a little different from ancient west asian’s, but similar in modern Hunza valley people and some Kurd people.


    http://spartareconsidered.blogspot.c...-assembly.html


    Thus, let’s wait and see whether J people adapted this kind of culture.
    Last edited by johen; 03-16-2019 at 09:45 PM.

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    cross posting from another thread as users were complaining it wasn't the right thread to discuss this after making a post of how Greek nationalism is coloring the interpretation of recent aDNA studies:

    The linguistics, archaelogy, and genetics is clear, men like George Papdapulous represent the aboriginal population that originally spoke whatever language Minoan was. They however were made to speak Greek through an invasion (Doric) or kulturkugel (elite minority, as was kept over the hittites)

    gettyimages-1053301900-e1544212732522.jpg

    Greek speaking Indo-Europeans tribes from the steppe (in EASTERN EUROPE) would have entered modern day Greece. In the Greek case, a billiard-like effect started with a Greek IE tribe Kulturkugel arriving from the north, entering modern day Greece, and immediately losing its "tip" (i.e. The Elite were steppic, while the common Minoans became Greek speaking). Once in Greece, the linguistic and social residue acquires a new cultural "tip" (e.g. aboriginal Y-Dna J Minoan descendants carried the Greek language outwards), that of the aboriginal Minoan population/culture itself ands spreads south.

    This MAINSTREAM model is, in effect, a rephrasing of what has been previously been described in 1988 in more general terms for other IE migrations (see Witzel 1998) : an immigrating civilization (i.e. Steppe Eastern European IE Speakers) joins the local one (Aboriginal Minoans), transforms it by taking on many of its aspects and then sets in move a recurrent, billiard-like spread of this innovative culture. In the end, no one at the start of the process may be genetically linked to anyone at the end of the process (i.e. the original elite Greek speakers were not related genetically on the whole to the aboriginal populations that came to speak Greek). (This is precisely what seems to have happened in the case of Indo-Europeanization of Greece, India, Iran, Anatolia, etc.).

    To sum up, in the words of MALLORY(1998: 194): "the mechanisms ... [of the] Kurgan model - mobility (both economic and social), increased reliance on stock breeding, opportunistic seizure of territories during agricultural system collapse, formation of defended centers, establishment of military or religious sodalities, that attracted non-IE membership, etc. -- have hardly been explored in detail."

    I have to attend to other matters but I will try to flesh out these arguments when I return. I stress, that the PIE question is first and foremost a question of Linguistics and Linguistic evidence clearly points to Eastern/Northern Europe as the origin of PIE (and therefore ultimately Greek).

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    Two main issues on this topic is Steppe admixture of Mycenaeans and potentially non-IE Minoans.

    I want to address both.

    On Steppe admixture of Mycenaeana:

    aDNA sample I6423 is a representative of an increased EHG population in Greece, already by the neolithic that would not be possible to be related to the Yamnaya-IE expansions (too early).

    Hence it is a path to explain a non-Yamnaya Steppe related admixture for mainland-origin Mycenaeans. Certainly a valid one in terms of geographic distance and time.

    This, indirectly, also means that middle age Slavic expansions into Greece are not exclusively the reason why today mainland Greek populations are not like ancient Greek aDNA (incl. mainland) found so far.
    We don't know exactly from where I6423 was but I expect it to have been from a northern region. Maybe a population like that, was the reason Macedonians were regarded as Barbarians/non-Greek by proper ancient Greeks. Hence that kind of population would have it's fair share into shifting today mainland Greeks towards Steppe-rich populations, without being ultimately Yamnaya-Steppe related.

    In this scenario I6423-like population was due to a mixture event of a EHG-EEF(ANF) population, with a CHG/Iran heavy population when these expanded towards Greece. Steppe/Yamnaya would have no role in this.

    That event can be approximated by a two way mixture of Balkans_Chalolithic sample I2181 (4550–4450 bc and Y-DNA R) or Varna outlier ANI163,
    with a Iran_ChL like population such as Hajji_Firuz_C or Tepe_Hissar_C.


    Hence the ideal model for the non-Yamnaya-Steppe population responsible for a Stelle-like admixture would look like this for the Greek colonists from Empúries Spain of ultimately mainland Greece origin:

    Greece_N : Oldest farmers G2a
    Levant_N : Among or shortly after G2a farmers, Levantine farmer population related to Y-DNA E
    Bulgaria I2181/ANI163: a northern farmer/hunter-gatherer (EHG) population potentially bringing as newcomers R1b/R1a (minor Y-DNA I would be already there from early WHG)
    Iran_ChL Hajji_Firuz_C: early CHG/Iran related expansion, potentially Kura-Araxes/Hattic/early-IE related, bringing J2/J1 as newcomers
    Maykop_Novosvobodnaya : later Mycenaean "warrior culture"IE related expansion from the east, bringing J2a and potentially first IE dialects and culture


    Excluded are potentially earlier populations like WHG origin YDNA I or H, T and L, as these had negligible genetic impact.

    I would be thankful if someone could run a admixture run with those source populations. This is also relevant for the Myceanean samples and for a comparison with Minoans (old ones from 2700 BC and late ones from 2000 BC).


    On Minoans and their Y-DNA:

    There are two "loose" Y-DNA/Autosomal-component correlations that were relevant here:
    G -- ANF/EEF
    J -- CHG/Iran

    This seems to apply to the Minoans:

    Oldest Minoan samples available from Odigitria, from ~2400 BC has Y-DNA G2a. Just one single Y-DNA available but as expected we also see lower CHG/Iran admixture in those oldest samples.
    Youngest Minoan samples from Lasithi ~1850 BC, not much earlier than the Mycenaean era, then start to show J2a together with a higher amount of CHG/Iran admixture. This trend continues with the Mycenaeans with a even higher CHG/Iran admixture and again J2a.

    The autosomal CHG/Iran admixture gradient is as low as 7% in earliest Minoan Odigitria and reaches it's maximum with 25% in a Mycenaean sample.

    Therefore the notion that potential Pelasgian aboriginals before appearance of IE Greeks were Y-DNA J2a is flawed. G2a/ANF/EFF played a much more significant quantitative role back in the concerned age.
    So the dominant role of J2a for proper ancient Greeks is also confirmed by the significant presence of a previous population that could represent the Pelasgians.
    This would be also in line with those young ~1850 BC Minoan samples being already significantly Mycenaean influenced and the increasing role of J2a in comparison with G2a.


    The framework for all of this is the following at this point of time: late-PIE is associated with Yamnaya and responsible for a northern path if Indoeuropeanization, while CHG/Iran admixture affected at least SE Europe (in European context).

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    I always think that genetics is not a magic wand, which is always changed according to new samples.

    Do it find a real source at ancient times? Recently I knew that it is almost impossible. See scythian papers. They could not find the earliest samples, the origin of scythian, which was already said by Russian anthropologists. So just they used the samples heavy-mixed with locals. It was also a dilemma of anthropology. Maybe archaeologists found in the recent scythian papers that genetics has a problem to find a source of ancient people.
    Thus, we need to find a fact in common denominator of genetics, archaeology and anthropology.

    See the minoan culture:
    What about weapons? During the Early Minoan period (circa 3000-2100), most of them were daggers, i.e. small swords either silver or bronze which according to scholars were either used for display (the silver ones) or as knives(he bronze ones) for various daily uses, while on rare occasions they could have been used as weapons in duels. ‟Roughly about that time, as well as slightly later, we also encounter male figurines that wear similar daggers in their belts, as in the very well known one from the peak sanctuary of Petsofas, near Palaikastron, east of Petras. Such weapons could kill if necessary, but those who carried them probably aimed to impress, displaying their high social position which allowed them to access expensive imported raw materials such as copper and ivory”, Mrs Tsipopoulou pointed out.
    However, mycanaean has a totally different situation.There are two types of swords; one is from west asia and the other one with ring.


    griffin warrior was also buried with two types of swords.
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...ion-180961441/

    I think the first one is related with J, but the ring one would be related with steppe. I think the ring one has a shape of seima turbino swords, and also the ring-type swords appeared in the steppe and east asia since iron age.
    And the result will come, who won.

    However, I already posted the royal strange burial and altai petroglyph(means “sky”), which is connected chinese bronze Di (Lord). I personally felt game is over. Sometimes there is an exception of a checkmate.
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....tai-petroglyph

    In ancient kingdom, a king is everything, but the others nothing.
    Last edited by johen; Yesterday at 03:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    But autosomal steppe admixture has. Which means a known and proven language switch to Greek is related to the arrival of a known and proven steppe admixture.

    ...
    There is nothing to show that the two are related.

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